When will there be discounts on the M5?

[ds666]

HoHoHo said:

ds666 said:

Excellent . Sounds like I won't have to wait as long as I thought to get used one at a good price ! ( Mind you if they don't sell any , there won't be an used ones . )

Or get a great lease on a new one like they offered on f10's .

That would be interesting and worth investigating if they offer similar lease deals However my tiny brain suggests they won't offer silly deals as 2013

If they can't shift them who knows ! Maybe they will pay people to drive them . ( I can but dream )

[w8pmc]

JMBMWM5 said:

honed a couple of dealerships with regard to the M5 sales and NONE had any orders taken.
This could impact discount in the first year IMO. IF that was the norm across the UK.

Inchape Thames Ditton had 3 F90 M5 orders input on launch day including mine (i've seen screen grab), when the BMW order system, went live, so i'd be highly surprised if other large groups didn't equally have a good few orders in.

One of the key reasons that's making me think now's not the right time are these conflicting stories. Someone's lying as either their is a waiting list & the car's selling extremely well, or it isn't & i'm being told one thing by Inchape, but hearing the opposite above.

Quotes in writing from Inchape "the car is in very high demand", "the F90 M5 order loaded in the system directly after yours will only arrive late September" (mine will be the first in July), "with the exception of margin i can utilise, their will be NO additional support from BMW UK on M5 products", "the UK have been allocated quota from BMW AG & the feeling is certainly that the F90 M5 is selling extremely well around the world, hence the UK & other countries quota will be limited" & the kicker, "demand is outstripping supply & we're being given guidance of an 18mth lead time for an order placed today (5th Jan)".

So clearly, this doesn't look like the same picture a couple of you above are painting so someone's being fed a tale.

[ds666]

It is highly unlikely that a dealer will tell you there is no demand .

[sonnenschein3000]

I predict that the F90 will sell like the F10, maybe a bit more in some markets as it now has 4wd and may attract people over from AMG and Audi RS, as well as some M6 owners.

But essentially F90 = F10m + 4wd + torque converter + technological updates + nicer interior. IMO it doesn't look much different from the F10 overall (i.e. nothing like the difference between E60 M5 to the F10 M5!). I don't think people will be getting out of their 1-series diesels and running to place an order for an F90; it will still largely attract the same clientele. I personally can't see a significant increase over F10 sales happening, though I may be wrong.

https://www.howmanyleft.co.uk/vehicle/bmw_m5_auto#... - Going by this, the F10 seemed to have generally been registered at a steady rate of 400-500 per year (with an exception in 2011 as it wasn't a full year of it being on sale, and 2013 slightly higher most probably because of the LCI/facelift model being launched, and these figures do not include the special versions 30 Jahre, Competition Pack, Competition Edition and M Performance Edition, all of which are listed separately on that website). I suspect that the F90 will follow a similar trend.

[w8pmc]

ds666 said:

It is highly unlikely that a dealer will tell you there is no demand .

Agreed, but a huge difference between as some have said above, 'we've sold none so you could have one of the first built' & demand is high so the current the wait is around 18mths'. Can't believe some dealer groups have sold none & others have sold out their next few allocations.

The discount offered is welcome, but i'm not a fan of such wildly conflicting stories, with both stating they're correct.

Now totally on the fence as to whether i'll proceed to lock down the spec of mine, which appears to be required by the end of Feb, so may bin my order & get my deposit back.

[w8pmc]

sonnenschein3000 said:

I predict that the F90 will sell like the F10, maybe a bit more in some markets as it now has 4wd and may attract people over from AMG and Audi RS, as well as some M6 owners.

But essentially F90 = F10m + 4wd + torque converter + technological updates + nicer interior. IMO it doesn't look much different from the F10 overall (i.e. nothing like the difference between E60 M5 to the F10 M5!). I don't think people will be getting out of their 1-series diesels and running to place an order for an F90; it will still largely attract the same clientele. I personally can't see a significant increase over F10 sales happening, though I may be wrong.

https://www.howmanyleft.co.uk/vehicle/bmw_m5_auto#... - Going by this, the F10 seemed to have generally been registered at a steady rate of 400-500 per year (with an exception in 2011 as it wasn't a full year of it being on sale, and 2013 slightly higher most probably because of the LCI/facelift model being launched, and these figures do not include the special versions 30 Jahre, Competition Pack, Competition Edition and M Performance Edition, all of which are listed separately on that website). I suspect that the F90 will follow a similar trend.

I'd suggest that at least 50% of all F10 M5's that were sold after the LCi launch will have been Comp pack cars (or variants of according to howmanyleft), so the annual registration rate is likely closer to 1000. No idea if the F90 will sell in more numbers, but my gut feel is it will as could attract like you say buyers from the other high performance AWD models.

The increased price is kind of irrelevant as like for like it's only about £1-2k more expensive for the enhanced tech, mechanicals & performance.

[kmpowell]

w8pmc said:

Been offered 9% discount on a purchase & 11.5% on a PCH against my order, with funding rates of around 5.9%APR.

Without wanting to be pedantic, it's PCP, not PCH.

PCP is Personal Contract Purchase, PCH is Personal Contract Hire. PCH is a 'lease' where you rent the car, costs are fixed, there's no APR involved.

[hertfordshire1]

I spoke to a sales manager at a BMW dealer.

They have been allocation 3 build slots so far for the whole of 2018 and have sold 2 cars at full RRP.

[ds666]

But essentially F90 = F10m + 4wd + torque converter + technological updates + nicer interior.




[/quote]

These are the fundamental differences that for me make the f90 really desirable over the f10 .
But it got me thinking that a Datsun GTR might be just as good and used ones have little risk regarding the supply/demand depreciation issue we will have with the f90 .

[w8pmc]

kmpowell said:

Without wanting to be pedantic, it's PCP, not PCH.

PCP is Personal Contract Purchase, PCH is Personal Contract Hire. PCH is a 'lease' where you rent the car, costs are fixed, there's no APR involved.

Kev, correct, the interest rate is against a purchase & the 2 different discounts are against PCP or PCH. I was detailing discounts & interest rates in the same post & wasn't inferring the interest rate applied to both, so yes the interest rate doesn't apply to the PCH, only purchase, however the 2 different discounts apply to either funding method, 9% discount if purchased, 11.5% discount if PCH.

[w8pmc]

ds666 said:

But essentially F90 = F10m + 4wd + torque converter + technological updates + nicer interior.

These are the fundamental differences that for me make the f90 really desirable over the f10 .
But it got me thinking that a Datsun GTR might be just as good and used ones have little risk regarding the supply/demand depreciation issue we will have with the f90 .

With the first 3 only costing £2k overall, so somewhat of a bargain. Also further changes to the drivetrain, albeit the base engine is the same, however the F90 has different turbos, different injection system & totally new cooling among other things.

Had an R35 GT-R & the M5 is night & day different. The R35 really is a one trick pony, albeit that one trick's quite impressive.

[sonnenschein3000]

w8pmc said:

I'd suggest that at least 50% of all F10 M5's that were sold after the LCi launch will have been Comp pack cars (or variants of according to howmanyleft), so the annual registration rate is likely closer to 1000.

Not according to this... Including those that are registered and SORN'ed,

F10 M5 LCI Competition Pack: https://www.howmanyleft.co.uk/vehicle/bmw_m5_compe... - 143 cars in total between 2013 and 2015

F10 M5 LCI Competition Edition: https://www.howmanyleft.co.uk/vehicle/bmw_m5_compe... - 14 cars in 2016

F10 M5 LCI 30 Jahre: https://www.howmanyleft.co.uk/vehicle/bmw_m5_30_ja... - 29 cars in 2014


I would have thought, like you said, about a good 50% would have been competition pack, but it doesn't seem to be the case. Maybe it was because of the additional cost of it? I don't know.

[kmpowell]

w8pmc said:

Kev, correct, the interest rate is against a purchase & the 2 different discounts are against PCP or PCH. I was detailing discounts & interest rates in the same post & wasn't inferring the interest rate applied to both, so yes the interest rate doesn't apply to the PCH, only purchase, however the 2 different discounts apply to either funding method, 9% discount if purchased, 11.5% discount if PCH.

What do you mean "11.5% discount if PCH"?

A PCH is a lease, discounts don't/can't apply to a lease because the car is not sold or has an option to be sold during the term of the agreement. you pay a fixed hire/lease price pcm. The car is never yours.

[w8pmc]

kmpowell said:

What do you mean "11.5% discount if PCH"?

A PCH is a lease, discounts don't/can't apply to a lease because the car is not sold or has an option to be sold during the term of the agreement. you pay a fixed hire/lease price pcm. The car is never yours.

Not sure i'm understanding you Kev?

A car can still in effect be discounted if it's being acquired via PCH. How do you think the crazy low deals that were available on the F10 M5 are achieved? It's Mfctr &/or sometimes Dealer support You still have to order the car & you still have a headline OTR figure that is discounted.

See below, the excerpt from Inchape Thames Ditton on my F90 M5 Order:




The start of production was always scheduled for March time, but I am assured the build slot allocated is one of the first public production cars. I am have doubled checked the positioning with both planning and the sales office.

The Uk will have been allocated quote from AG in Germany, and the feeling is certainly that the M5 is selling well all round the world hence our quota and other will be limited.

Of course this can also create a demand outstripping supply situation, and we are being given a guidance of 12-18months for an order placed now.

The quotes are based on the indicative specification you mentioned in your e-mail.

Marina Bay Blue
Silverstone Interior
Comfort Package
Premium Package
M Sport Exhaust
Apple CarPlay

The retail order is based on an 9% discount and the contract hire one approx 11.5%.

[w8pmc]

sonnenschein3000 said:

Not according to this... Including those that are registered and SORN'ed,

F10 M5 LCI Competition Pack: https://www.howmanyleft.co.uk/vehicle/bmw_m5_compe... - 143 cars in total between 2013 and 2015

F10 M5 LCI Competition Edition: https://www.howmanyleft.co.uk/vehicle/bmw_m5_compe... - 14 cars in 2016

F10 M5 LCI 30 Jahre: https://www.howmanyleft.co.uk/vehicle/bmw_m5_30_ja... - 29 cars in 2014


I would have thought, like you said, about a good 50% would have been competition pack, but it doesn't seem to be the case. Maybe it was because of the additional cost of it? I don't know.

That certainly surprises me. I guess all the Lease cars were non CP, so perhaps that's the delta. I see so many CP's for sale though, i'd have been sure they accounted for a much bigger slice of F10 M5 sales.

[kmpowell]

w8pmc said:

A car can still in effect be discounted if it's being acquired via PCH.

It can't because you aren't buying it or entering into an agreement where you buy it so there's no baseline to base any "discount" on. There's no RRP, no future value, no VAT, no ownership. There's nothing in a PCH where a 'discount' can be attributed off a "cost" price. A PCH is a set amount of cost to hire the vehicle.

The silly cheap lease/hire deals are calculated against volume targets not RRP prices, there's no baseline for a consumer "cost" to measure a discount against.

That exert from Inchcape is just marketing bks.

[w8pmc]

kmpowell said:

It can't because you aren't buying it or entering into an agreement where you buy it so there's no baseline to base any "discount" on. There's no RRP, no future value, no VAT, no ownership. There's nothing in a PCH where a 'discount' can be attributed off a "cost" price. A PCH is a set amount of cost to hire the vehicle.

The silly cheap lease/hire deals are calculated against volume targets not RRP prices, there's no baseline for a consumer "cost" to measure a discount against.

That exert from Inchcape is just marketing bks.

That makes no difference Kev & i know exactly how a PCH works as have had several now over the years & currently got 2 on the go.

A brand new car on PCH still has a cost/value & as such is in a variety of ways discounted to achieve a rental price & for the great deals heavily subsidised. A chunk of that will be attributable to the car's OTR cost & some likely down to the Mfcr or Lease companies internal funding costs.

I've pasted below the order details for my 2nd F10 M5 (clearly showing an allowance/discount) & i have the same for my 1st F10 M5, albeit the figures are different.



Code Description Price VAT Total
Vehicle
ZM5N F10 M5 Saloon S63 4.4i 60,266.67 12,053.33 72,320.00
B05 Monte Carlo Blue 0.00 0.00 0.00
LKDA Sakhir Orange Extended Merino Leather 0.00 0.00 0.00
Sub Total 60,266.67 12,053.33 72,320.00
Options
316 Bootlid operation, powered 358.33 71.67 430.00
319 Universal Remote Control 162.50 32.50 195.00
3AG Reversing Assist camera 312.50 62.50 375.00
5DL Surround-view 441.67 88.33 530.00
688 Loudspeaker system - harman/kardon surround
sound
425.00 85.00 510.00
6AK BMW Online Services 0.00 0.00 0.00
6AM Real Time Traffic Information 0.00 0.00 0.00
6AN Information Plus 0.00 0.00 0.00
6AP Remote Services 0.00 0.00 0.00
6AR Internet 79.17 15.83 95.00
754 M rear spoiler 0.00 0.00 0.00
761 Sun protection glass 287.50 57.50 345.00
Sub Total 2,066.67 413.33 2,480.00
Special Allowance (9,649.32) (1,929.86) (11,579.18)
Total 52,684.02 10,536.80 63,220.82
Other Items
RFLP12 RFL Band L - Petrol - 12 Months (inc. 1st Reg. Fee) 895.00 0.00 895.00
80 Number Plates 20.83 4.17 25.00
DEL Delivery 583.33 116.67 700.00
Sub Total 1,499.16 120.84 1,620.00
Total Purchase Price 54,183.18 10,657.64 64,840.83

[kmpowell]

w8pmc said:

That makes no difference Kev

It makes all the difference, so we'll have to agree to disagree.

You cannot base a 'discount' on a PCH, it's numerically impossible as there's no retail base "cost" to discount on. The only discount you can give is on the monthly hire cost, but that's like comparing apples and pears if you try to compare that discount to a sales discount, because a lease £cpm is based on factors that do not apply to retail sales pricing.

Your F10 figures bear no factor into anything because you never owned the car, you hired it for a period of time, so all the "costs" on the car are simply illustrative. Any discount you got was on the overall hire cost, not a cost of the car. They are two very different things.

Edited by kmpowell on Friday 12th January 14:14

[w8pmc]

kmpowell said:

It makes all the difference, so we'll have to agree to disagree.

You cannot base a 'discount' on a PCH, it's numerically impossible as there's no retail base "cost" to discount on. The only discount you can give is on the monthly hire cost, but that's like comparing apples and pears if you try to compare that discount to a sales discount, because a lease £cpm is based on factors that do not apply to retail sales pricing.

Your F10 figures bear no factor into anything because you never owned the car, you hired it for a period of time, so all the "costs" on the car are simply illustrative. Any discount you got was on the overall hire cost, not a cost of the car. They are two very different things.

Edited by kmpowell on Friday 12th January 14:14

Kev, i've no problem if you disagree & clearly you have some discomfort with PCH, however everything i've said is most certainly relevant/correct & as has been backed up with the supporting detail from different dealers (not sure how that's marketing bks but hey ho).

The 2nd excerpt is from the physical order which i have here (in fact 2 of them for different F10 M5's). How do they bear no factor & how's that got anything to do with ownership?? Makes no difference if illustrative as the figures are wholly relevant & thus the 'money off' is a discount or an allowance or perhaps even fairy dollars, but it's still on paper a monetary value off the list price of a physical car.

An audit trail has to exist on the car, be it sold for cash, PCP or Leased & let's just assume the dealer has 3 identical cars & those 3 cars are acquired using each of the 3 funding methods. Car one costs £100k & buyer is paying cash, dealer would rather they finance for the extra kickback but customer doesn't want to go that route so dealer offers say a 15% discount & thus the OTR is £85k. Car two is acquired via PCP (the dealers favourite) & it's list price is as per the cash buyer, £100k. However this customer haggles a little harder & get's 18% discount, also as the customer is taking PCP, BMW offer a Mctr support incentive of £2.5k & the dealer matches that with another £2.5k, thus the 2nd identical car has an OTR price of £77k (all sources of discount will be listed to equal the £23k

Lastly, the nasty PCH person turns up & fancies the 3rd car so asks if any deals are available on this £100k motor. Dealer then informs the customer that deals to die for are available & then crunches the numbers to get to an equivalent amortised rental of let's say £900 a month. The dealer having acquired all 3 cars from BMW UK/AG for exactly the same outlay will have to account for this final transaction & thus applies a discount/allowance/incentive so the relevant numbers stack up (as per my F10 M5 orders).

Now where i think we're agreeing Kev, is that the discount/incentive/allowance although obviously given to the customer by way of subsidised rentals, is more for internal purpose than the customers benefit as the dealer has 'sudo sold' the PCH car, but they of course have bought the said car from BMW AG, however they will never get the car back at the end of the lease as it will go back to BMW to be sold on by whatever method (some do return to the dealer network, some go to auction & some are bought by the original customer).

Given we've now well & truly derailed this thread, let's pick up offline & if we're still in disagreement, as i'm clearly missing your point & you're clearly not believing the information I have & am presenting

[kmpowell]

Paul - I have no issue at all with PCH, in fact our nursery/shopping hack is on PCH.

I just felt that when people are considering/talking about finance options on cars touching £100k, any levels of discount should be 100% clear. IMO that Inchcape quoted 11.5% is very misleading as it’s not actual or in any way relevant to a PCH.