New shape M5 - how cheap?

[Zod]

castex said:

BTW Zod, I was wondering whether you would be considering the mods outlined in last month's EVO - namely, mega torque - on your car, or is the machine quite awesome enough as is? Certainly looks it

I'll get it run in first (I am ashamed to admit that with work going mad and the wife about to pop a baby, I haen't managed 1200 miles yet ). Then there might be a Ring trip in September. After that, I'll know how fast this car really is. Those mods did look tempting, but seriously expensive.

[Zod]

castex said:

O/T Reading Nimmler's post I'm sure when referring to the 'poser M5 brigade' he meant those M5 drivers - and there must be a lot of them - who buy the car just to look good. I don't think he meant all M5 pilots. But then, what do i know? I'd also like to say that posting only very seldom, or very often, is no indication of post quality!

I'm a sensitive type and I always take these things badly.

[blutusc]

Zod Nimmler
Zod 1 Nimmler 0

Round 2 .....................

[Julian64]

I'd just like to ressurect this thread as I remember having a disagreement regarding resale values of E60 M5's. I see exchange and mart, autotrader now advertising one year old trade 2005 low mileage M5's at 55K which is some 20-30K loss on new price within a year depending on spec.

I assume you could haggle a little, but even if you didn't my prediction of being able to grab one at 30K at three years is looking spot on at the moment, is it not?

[Zod]

Julian64 said:

I'd just like to ressurect this thread as I remember having a disagreement regarding resale values of E60 M5's. I see exchange and mart, autotrader now advertising one year old trade 2005 low mileage M5's at 55K which is some 20-30K loss on new price within a year depending on spec.

I assume you could haggle a little, but even if you didn't my prediction of being able to grab one at 30K at three years is looking spot on at the moment, is it not?

Er no it isn't and your figures suggest that a new M5 would cost up to £85k. You cannot spend more than about £75k on a new M5, even with full Individual spec. The few on at £55k tend to be low spec'd examples in Silverstone or Sepang. £62k to £55k in a year or more is hardly suggestive of a fall to £30k by 2008.

Edited by Zod on Tuesday 19th September 10:25

[rob05]

A very interesting and funny thread at the same time we must be getting more strangers in town!
Zod Why don't you convert to LPG you might save a couple of quid and you do have the boot space?
Now hows that for a serious mod?

[nbetts]

Julian64 said:

I'd just like to ressurect this thread as I remember having a disagreement regarding resale values of E60 M5's. I see exchange and mart, autotrader now advertising one year old trade 2005 low mileage M5's at 55K which is some 20-30K loss on new price within a year depending on spec.

I assume you could haggle a little, but even if you didn't my prediction of being able to grab one at 30K at three years is looking spot on at the moment, is it not?

Blimey what a silly thing to post... BMW M5 retails at £63,495 - you would really have to go some to get one costing £75-80k in cost

[Zod]

rob05 said:

A very interesting and funny thread at the same time we must be getting more strangers in town!
Zod Why don't you convert to LPG you might save a couple of quid and you do have the boot space?
Now hows that for a serious mod?

no need - got 22 mpg on a run back from Devon on Sunday!

[drivin_me_nuts]

..Looking around M5board.com you see that there are more than a fair share of M5s with 'issues' around SMG, Vanos lines and other sensor problems. Are these serious problems, or are they just teething troubles? A £70k car that looses its gearbox - some more than two cannot be a sensible long term ownership proposition. Its OK now whilst under (extended)warranty. But in 3 years, that's a lot of pennies in the old piggybank <gulp>

Mind you, could be a useful second hand buy once someone else has taken the £35k depreciation.

Did BMW release a not quite ready product?

[Zod]

drivin_me_nuts said:

..Looking around M5board.com you see that there are more than a fair share of M5s with 'issues' around SMG, Vanos lines and other sensor problems. Are these serious problems, or are they just teething troubles? A £70k car that looses its gearbox - some more than two cannot be a sensible long term ownership proposition. Its OK now whilst under (extended)warranty. But in 3 years, that's a lot of pennies in the old piggybank <gulp>

Mind you, could be a useful second hand buy once someone else has taken the £35k depreciation.

Did BMW release a not quite ready product?

M5board is mostly Americans. They all had plenty of problems with E46 M3s too that were not replicated in anything like the same numbers in Europe. They can't drive and they like complaining.

Apart from Ashok and his gearboxes, I'm not aware of any UK M5s with any issues other than minor niggles with secondary electronics. There was a VANOS hose issue on some early cars corrected by a recall. There was also a rear shock absorber issue, also handled by recall.

[dazren]

Zod said:

Apart from Ashok and his gearboxes, I'm not aware of any UK M5s with any issues other than minor niggles with secondary electronics.

W8PMC on here has had a problem in the last week or so (reported on the M5board). The hydraulic system for the gearbox gave up and needs to be replaced. My brothers E60 has been in the workship twice for sensor problems (once for 2.5 weeks whilst establishing exactly what the problem was). Much as I really enjoy driving his E60, the poor fuel economy and more importantly woefully small fuel tank, may mean I look elsewhere when swapping out of my E39 in a few years.

DAZ

Edited by dazren on Tuesday 19th September 14:55

[Zod]

dazren said:

Zod said:

Apart from Ashok and his gearboxes, I'm not aware of any UK M5s with any issues other than minor niggles with secondary electronics.

W8PMC on here has had a problem in the last week or so (reported on the M5board). The hydraulic system for the gearbox gave up and needs to be replaced. My brothers E60 has been in the workship twice for sensor problems (once for 2.5 weeks whilst establishing exactly what the problem was). Much as I really enjoy driving his E60, the poor fuel economy and more importantly woefully small fuel tank, may mean I look elsewhere when swapping out of my E39 in a few years.

DAZ

Edited by dazren on Tuesday 19th September 14:55

The tank is an issue, but I tend to get 300 miles out of it on long trips and that' smore than I sometimes managed in the M3s. The key to fuel economy on long journeys is to use 7th gear. It makes a dramatic difference.

[Gareth W]

Zod said:

castex said:

O/T
Reading Nimmler's post I'm sure when referring to the 'poser M5 brigade' he meant those M5 drivers - and there must be a lot of them - who buy the car just to look good. I don't think he meant all M5 pilots.
But then, what do i know?
I'd also like to say that posting only very seldom, or very often, is no indication of post quality!

I'm a sensitive type and I always take these things badly.

Since when have you been "sensitive" Zod ??

[Gareth W]

Zod said:

Julian64 said:

I'd just like to ressurect this thread as I remember having a disagreement regarding resale values of E60 M5's. I see exchange and mart, autotrader now advertising one year old trade 2005 low mileage M5's at 55K which is some 20-30K loss on new price within a year depending on spec.

I assume you could haggle a little, but even if you didn't my prediction of being able to grab one at 30K at three years is looking spot on at the moment, is it not?

Er no it isn't and your figures suggest that a new M5 would cost up to £85k. You cannot spend more than about £75k on a new M5, even with full Individual spec. The few on at £55k tend to be low spec'd examples in Silverstone or Sepang. £62k to £55k in a year or more is hardly suggestive of a fall to £30k by 2008.

Edited by Zod on Tuesday 19th September 10:25

Also are people comparing retail to trade prices here to prove their home spun theory on the residual value of the E60 M5 ?

The first E60 M5's will be out of warranty in May 2008 (and yes you'd be a loon to buy one without a BMW warranty...) and by then I expect to see representative examples (i.e. sensible mileage/spec and colour scheme's - that were £62k-£68k new) retailing at your friendly BMW emporium for £39,995 (minimum) and up to £44,995 as an average...

At the moment the M5 is still holding it's value well and the supply is still pretty limited for new cars. Sure there are plenty of used ones around but when you look into the detail of the "cheap" cars (£55k and less) there are very good reasons for that price.

[drivin_me_nuts]

I have an E39 M5. I bought mine for £26k from a dealer in early 2003. I have the original £65k invoice. It was a first batch 1999 model car and had 37k on the clock. So, in less than 4 years it lost almost £40k.

Now, maybe the latest M5 will be different, but it is not so 'special' or in limited numbers to be anything else than a heavy depreciator. I reckon that in 3 years you will indeed see sub (or close to) £30k M5s on the approved forecourt. Couple that with the daft warranty prices and schedules and these cars become less attractive the older they get.

Also consider than the V10 is unique to this model and I can see you being tied into those stealers for a long long time.

[hunttheshunt]

I seem to remember BMW dropped the cost of the M5 by as much as £10K and deleted a number of standard options around that time, could that account for some of your depreciation.

V10 in the M6 also, Audi A8, Gallardo, Viper etc etc.

[Julian64]

Well, I think were on track and assuming we are all here next year I'll ressurect it once again.

I can understand why someone who bought an E60 doesn't want to think about residuals but the evidence is there with all the previous M cars for anyone to see if they want to look.

The converstation started in a serious way, not to denegrate the cars in fact just the opposite but to point out why such a great car suffers from poor residuals. The E60 will (in my opinion) continue to suffer, and I still predict I will be able to pick one up for £30K in three years. I'm assume will will actually have to wait until 2008 if we dispute what is currently happening.

The car will lose quickly, but steadily over the next two years and BMW will doubtless shoot themselves in the foot once again by bringing out a new shape or some such innovation to make the price slide faster still. But their biggest mistake in the second hand market is the complexity of the car followed by BMW's steadfast refusal to release even basic information to allow anyone other than BMW to service. So independants get starved out.

Second hand warranties on the car become laughable, and people are wary of the risk of buying without as it becomes the unfixable car, or the cap in hand big bill.

I can't state enough that I think the E60 is a powerhouse achievement. I like the M cars and have had a few, even own a E39 M5 now. But I don't like BMW's marketing ethos, and believe it is the cause of its own residual problem.

[gizlaroc]

Interesting thread.

Why is everyone so shocked at a car costing £65k loosing £30k over 3 years?
What other car wouldn't??

My Dad's mate bought a 54 plate 911 C2S with nav, sports chrono and a couple of other toys, which I think he said cost just under £77k, it was on a 54 plate, a couple of months later he got his 05 plate M5 which cost him £65.5k. He has just sold his 911 and managed to get £52k for it, so that has lost £21k in just over 18 months, he was offered £52k for his M5 against a used M6 the other day, so in 18 months that has only lost £13.5k, but if he sold it privately like he did the 911 he says he will get £55k for it no problem. So an £11k loss in 18 months, pretty good I reckon.
Porsche owners always go on about the excellent residuals but looking around I just don't see it myslef, they seem to loose as much as anything else out there.

Sorry I don't post here often and I don't know what you guys drive so I don't know what you are comparing the losses to, is there some marque I don't know about that doesn't depreciate??

Edited by gizlaroc on Tuesday 19th September 16:59

[drivin_me_nuts]

... intesting comparison to the porker, but porkers hold their value very well indeed. Over the longer term a £65k Porsche will hold more of your cash than a comparable BMW.

Don't get me wrong either, I like my M5 and it is a daily driver it's OK. It has not been without its (many) problems and these have always been fixed by BMW under warranty, but without it I would not touch it with a ten foot barge pole.

There was a funny post on M5board last week. One stuffed BMW being trailed back to a dealer on a covered trailer because BMW did not want people to see one of their finest on a flatbed.

Aah, the power of brand marketing. Hide from the people what you don't want the people to see.

[Zod]

Julian64 said:

The car will lose quickly, but steadily over the next two years and BMW will doubtless shoot themselves in the foot once again by bringing out a new shape or some such innovation to make the price slide faster still. But their biggest mistake in the second hand market is the complexity of the car followed by BMW's steadfast refusal to release even basic information to allow anyone other than BMW to service. So independants get starved out.

BMW don't do this with M cars. They made a mistake in the pricing of the E39 M5, so they dropped it and they slightly changed the headlights when they faclifted the rest of the E39 range. The E46 M3 has been changed only in tiny ways since it was launched in late 2000.

Gareth knows his stuff when it comes to car values (nothing else though ). I know a bit about depreciation too, having owned a CSL that I lost 33% on in 17 months.

Edited by Zod on Tuesday 19th September 17:13