Considering an E36 M3 - some ifno, please?
Discussion
Afternoon all,
I currently drive an E46 320D which is a nice enough car but not exactly thrilling. Handles well, goes well for a diesel and gives reasonable MPG (I see 420 miles from a £60 tank full) which is important as I have a 40 mile/day round trip commute, 5 days a week.
All was good until last weekend when a mate turned up with an E46 M3 - and wow, what a car. I've had quick cars in the past, and we've always had them in the family, but this has reignited my driving fire, if you will, and I'm intrigued into looking at other car options.
I cant really justify shelling out on an E46 M3 right now - unlike my friend I have a house to think about and also a motorbike, which is meant to fulfil my need for speed (an Aprilia RST1000 FWIW)!
But I can afford a decent E36 M3 coupe, a car I've always loved the look of but never had any experience with. So, tell me about it...
...for a start, how does it compare to the E46? I imagine the E46 is a fairly big leap on, but looking at the basic figures, the E36 isn't far behind, and utlising one of the many "chips" available, power seems to be upped to match the newer car - add the fact the E36 is lighter, and I reckon I could be expecting similar levels of performance. Is this a fair assumption?
Secondly, running costs. Obviously insurance is Group 20 but how do these fair in terms of MPG? Parker's quote 25mpg, but then they quote 49mpg for my 320D and I get around 35mpg on my A and B road commute, driven swiftly but sensibly. How much does an E36 cost to fill up at todays 103.9p/litre (I assume they use 95 RON ok?) and how many miles can I expect from a tank? If it's £50 and 300 miles then thats alright; if it's nearer £60 and 200 miles then that's not so good! Does chipping them generally improve MPG as well?
Also, is the SMG model any good? Seen a few around but I've always had manuals up until now and would instinctively stay this way! On the subject of gearboxes, the manual is 6 gears (assume the SMG is too) so do they give decent MPG at 80/90mph in 6th?
Finally, are there any other costs I should look out for. Most have had their VANOS replaced under warranty, I assume I should avoid any cars that haven't had this work done? Anything else to look out for/note/avoid?
Oh, and one last thing - I'd like to take it to the 'Ring at some point - not regularly, just wanna go - what sort of times does a standard E36 M3 give round there, in the hands of your average 'Ring driver? Just to get an idea how they run on track
Cheers in anticipation of some replies!
I currently drive an E46 320D which is a nice enough car but not exactly thrilling. Handles well, goes well for a diesel and gives reasonable MPG (I see 420 miles from a £60 tank full) which is important as I have a 40 mile/day round trip commute, 5 days a week.
All was good until last weekend when a mate turned up with an E46 M3 - and wow, what a car. I've had quick cars in the past, and we've always had them in the family, but this has reignited my driving fire, if you will, and I'm intrigued into looking at other car options.
I cant really justify shelling out on an E46 M3 right now - unlike my friend I have a house to think about and also a motorbike, which is meant to fulfil my need for speed (an Aprilia RST1000 FWIW)!
But I can afford a decent E36 M3 coupe, a car I've always loved the look of but never had any experience with. So, tell me about it...
...for a start, how does it compare to the E46? I imagine the E46 is a fairly big leap on, but looking at the basic figures, the E36 isn't far behind, and utlising one of the many "chips" available, power seems to be upped to match the newer car - add the fact the E36 is lighter, and I reckon I could be expecting similar levels of performance. Is this a fair assumption?
Secondly, running costs. Obviously insurance is Group 20 but how do these fair in terms of MPG? Parker's quote 25mpg, but then they quote 49mpg for my 320D and I get around 35mpg on my A and B road commute, driven swiftly but sensibly. How much does an E36 cost to fill up at todays 103.9p/litre (I assume they use 95 RON ok?) and how many miles can I expect from a tank? If it's £50 and 300 miles then thats alright; if it's nearer £60 and 200 miles then that's not so good! Does chipping them generally improve MPG as well?
Also, is the SMG model any good? Seen a few around but I've always had manuals up until now and would instinctively stay this way! On the subject of gearboxes, the manual is 6 gears (assume the SMG is too) so do they give decent MPG at 80/90mph in 6th?
Finally, are there any other costs I should look out for. Most have had their VANOS replaced under warranty, I assume I should avoid any cars that haven't had this work done? Anything else to look out for/note/avoid?
Oh, and one last thing - I'd like to take it to the 'Ring at some point - not regularly, just wanna go - what sort of times does a standard E36 M3 give round there, in the hands of your average 'Ring driver? Just to get an idea how they run on track
Cheers in anticipation of some replies!
I would suggest that one advantage to the E36 is that surely they can loose much more money where as the E46 will still devalue to a greater extent.
MPG i average 23.5 but have seen 32mpg on the motorway and 12mpg on the track.
I've heard a few bad things about the SMG on the E36 but others like it, There is a possible cost of the pump which isn't a consideration on the manual car.
The vanos thing seams to be quite over done but is a possible £1500 cost so you should be aware of it. Just because its had one doesn't been it won't ever need another some seam to last 40,000 miles other 100,000 miles its a bit pot luck.
For what they cost at the moment they're a great car and I've enjoyed mine for the last 18 months.
MPG i average 23.5 but have seen 32mpg on the motorway and 12mpg on the track.
I've heard a few bad things about the SMG on the E36 but others like it, There is a possible cost of the pump which isn't a consideration on the manual car.
The vanos thing seams to be quite over done but is a possible £1500 cost so you should be aware of it. Just because its had one doesn't been it won't ever need another some seam to last 40,000 miles other 100,000 miles its a bit pot luck.
For what they cost at the moment they're a great car and I've enjoyed mine for the last 18 months.
Get in touch with BMW Car magazine and buy one of their buying guides!! A cheap way £5 to understand pretty well everything about buying the M3. 4 door version is a better car to drive quickly but not the most attractive to look at.
If you want to go to the 'ring forget fast times...too crowded these days and until you know the track, which can take years, going fast is NOT an option.
If you want to go to the 'ring forget fast times...too crowded these days and until you know the track, which can take years, going fast is NOT an option.
Mike_C said:
............Secondly, running costs. Obviously insurance is Group 20 but how do these fair in terms of MPG? Parker's quote 25mpg, but then they quote 49mpg for my 320D and I get around 35mpg on my A and B road commute, driven swiftly but sensibly. How much does an E36 cost to fill up at todays 103.9p/litre (I assume they use 95 RON ok?) and how many miles can I expect from a tank? If it's £50 and 300 miles then thats alright; if it's nearer £60 and 200 miles then that's not so good! Does chipping them generally improve MPG as well?
.............
I'll leave the rest to others or you can use the search functon for VANOS, it's been covered many times...............
For a 3.0l I'm averaging 20mpg, I fill up with Tesco 99, with 98RON being the recommended witches brew and a full tank will cost about £55/60. I'll get between 220 and 250 miles per tank. The 3.2 EVO will give you more on a cruise as a result of the longer 6th gear which basically works as an overdrive but the hooning mpg will be similar.
I have covered 35k miles in M3 E36 Evos and you can expect to get 35mpg on a motorway at 80mph, low 30's at 90 - 100mph and 24mph 'round town.
It's £60 to fill up and you'll get 250 miles if it is purely town driving, 300 miles typically and up to 400 miles if it is all motorway driving.
11 mpg on the 'Ring and I can achieve 8.40 - 8.50sec BTG on a public day. That's for a totally standard car.
I drove an E46 at Bedford recently and it was so much better, much less understeer and better steering feel.
Just my opinion
It's £60 to fill up and you'll get 250 miles if it is purely town driving, 300 miles typically and up to 400 miles if it is all motorway driving.
11 mpg on the 'Ring and I can achieve 8.40 - 8.50sec BTG on a public day. That's for a totally standard car.
I drove an E46 at Bedford recently and it was so much better, much less understeer and better steering feel.
Just my opinion
simon clark said:
I have covered 35k miles in M3 E36 Evos and you can expect to get 35mpg on a motorway at 80mph, low 30's at 90 - 100mph and 24mph 'round town.
It's £60 to fill up and you'll get 250 miles if it is purely town driving, 300 miles typically and up to 400 miles if it is all motorway driving.
11 mpg on the 'Ring and I can achieve 8.40 - 8.50sec BTG on a public day. That's for a totally standard car.
I drove an E46 at Bedford recently and it was so much better, much less understeer and better steering feel.
Just my opinion
Hi Simon, thanks for the reply. Do you have to run them on on 98/99 RON then?It's £60 to fill up and you'll get 250 miles if it is purely town driving, 300 miles typically and up to 400 miles if it is all motorway driving.
11 mpg on the 'Ring and I can achieve 8.40 - 8.50sec BTG on a public day. That's for a totally standard car.
I drove an E46 at Bedford recently and it was so much better, much less understeer and better steering feel.
Just my opinion
300 miles to a tank is reasonable - to be honest, I'd probably drive it relatively sedately on my day to day run to work, keeping the revs below 4,000rpm or so and just trying to make the most of the torque rather than the revs - driving like that, should I see 300 miles on a regular basis do you think? 400miles on a motorway run is excellent - what sort of MPG does that equate to (town/general/motorway/track)?
On another note, whats the console with all the buttons below the stereo etc, in this pic it says "55mph limit"? And what extras does the M3 come with as standard, and what optional extras are worth looking out for?
Cheers!
UPDATE: went and test drove one this morning. To be honest, it was just the closest one to home on autotrader rather than one I'd actually really like, and I wasn't that impressed.
To be fair, it had done 126,000 miles which is way more than I'd go for - it didn't say the mileage in the advert, but I'd be looking for a mint low-miler at around 50,000 miles so that has to be taken into account.
First impressions - fired up immediately, lovely smooth engine. Those "Vader" leather seats are excellent and the cabin is nice. It also drove nicely round town, although the clutch biting point is very low - apparently this is common to all M3's, I assume it is good for track work but less so for road use IMO.
It wasn't that quick, though. Certainly not on the same level as the E46 thats for sure. I'm not sure if it was just this example, but not a lot happened below 4,000rpm - in fact, not until 5,000rpm did anything really happen, and when it did it was certainly quick but not "oh my god this quick" if that makes sense!
Also, the suspension was suitably firm but it meant it skipped about a lot on our slightly uneven tarmac and potholed roads, and it also seemed to tramline quite heavily.
Now, i'm not sure if this is just a tatty example (although the bodywork looked ok and apparently it has a FBMWSH) or if this is common to all E36 M3's - any thoughts?
To be fair, it had done 126,000 miles which is way more than I'd go for - it didn't say the mileage in the advert, but I'd be looking for a mint low-miler at around 50,000 miles so that has to be taken into account.
First impressions - fired up immediately, lovely smooth engine. Those "Vader" leather seats are excellent and the cabin is nice. It also drove nicely round town, although the clutch biting point is very low - apparently this is common to all M3's, I assume it is good for track work but less so for road use IMO.
It wasn't that quick, though. Certainly not on the same level as the E46 thats for sure. I'm not sure if it was just this example, but not a lot happened below 4,000rpm - in fact, not until 5,000rpm did anything really happen, and when it did it was certainly quick but not "oh my god this quick" if that makes sense!
Also, the suspension was suitably firm but it meant it skipped about a lot on our slightly uneven tarmac and potholed roads, and it also seemed to tramline quite heavily.
Now, i'm not sure if this is just a tatty example (although the bodywork looked ok and apparently it has a FBMWSH) or if this is common to all E36 M3's - any thoughts?
The console in the picture is the on board computer (OBC). It has many functions, showing mpg, external temp etc. The limit feature produces a "bing" when you hit a certain speed, useful when hooning.
I'm surprised you felt the E36 was slow, there is hardly a vast chasm between it an a E46's perfomance. The power curve does take a leap skyward when the VANOS kicks in at 5500rpm though. If it was really sluggish below this I'd suggest this example was a bit poor.
As for the poor on road ride, was it lowered? This doesn't sound like a standard M3 trait.
I'm surprised you felt the E36 was slow, there is hardly a vast chasm between it an a E46's perfomance. The power curve does take a leap skyward when the VANOS kicks in at 5500rpm though. If it was really sluggish below this I'd suggest this example was a bit poor.
As for the poor on road ride, was it lowered? This doesn't sound like a standard M3 trait.
Mike_C said:
Hi Simon, thanks for the reply. Do you have to run them on on 98/99 RON then?
Cheers!
if you run it on 95 it will run very rich to prevent pinking and you'll get bad mpg, a friend of mine has a e30 325 sport with a S50 B32 motor in it(the EVO engine) and he doesn't have the cats on it as its a '89 car and when first started it he just put 95Ron in it and it made your eyes water it ran so rich, whet to put it though its MOT and Field on emissions reading 6.5% CO, put some Vpower in and it was down to just over 1% COCheers!
Edited by Cliffv8 on Saturday 23 February 13:51
Frik said:
In other words, it may well turn out cheaper to run it on Super. That's what I keep telling myself anyway.
yep, that's what i do when filling up at £1.11 a liter 
just need to put your foot down every know and then, remind yourself it is worth it 
Edited by Cliffv8 on Saturday 23 February 14:25
I am a bit biased but I love my e36 evo. Blistering quick car with a couple of Mods particularly the DaveF filter kit.
Don't fuss about the milage. e36s M3s should always be bought on history and condition. Not on milage. Low milage is no indicator of a decent car. If anything, a 50k miler hasn't been driven enough in my opinion.
I can't explain why you were not impressed with your test drive but they do take some getting used to and learning before they will truly be appreciated.
And run it on super for sure. If BMW say to do so and go as far as sticking "98RON only" stickers everywhere then I am not going to argue with them!
Don't fuss about the milage. e36s M3s should always be bought on history and condition. Not on milage. Low milage is no indicator of a decent car. If anything, a 50k miler hasn't been driven enough in my opinion.
I can't explain why you were not impressed with your test drive but they do take some getting used to and learning before they will truly be appreciated.
And run it on super for sure. If BMW say to do so and go as far as sticking "98RON only" stickers everywhere then I am not going to argue with them!
Mike,
I'm a bit late to the party but perhaps I an offer some advise that has been missed out.
Firstly what's your budget?
8-10k should get you the best examples. At this sort of price you can expect a lower milage car. The advantage of this is that the suspension should still be fresh. IME a car with north of 80k on the dial will likely need a thorough suspension overhall. At which point you may want to consider going down the uprated route like coilovers etc.
The bottom line is that the E36 was designed to be more of a GT than a track warrior as per BMW's marketting strategy to chase greater sales. However, a couple of tweaks can turn it into a very capable machine. Therefore, if you spend 7-8k on a decent one and then 2-3k sorting the suspension/brakes, you will have a far more capable car than a standard E46 M3 - of which decent ones still command 16k +
Put simply, the E36 is a bit of a bargain right now.
As for performance, the example you drove was either knackered or you're expecting too much. Was the Vanos stillworking on car you had a shot in? If it didn't start to pull hard from 2.5k revs then the answer is probably yes. From 5k revs + it really does start to shift.
In the real world, there is no difference between the performance of the E46 ad the E36. What's more, a simple remap combined with breathing mods will release some healthy horsepower that is harder to achieve from the S54 engined E46.
Please feel free to drop me a line if you need more info. I'd be delighted to help.
I'm a bit late to the party but perhaps I an offer some advise that has been missed out.
Firstly what's your budget?
8-10k should get you the best examples. At this sort of price you can expect a lower milage car. The advantage of this is that the suspension should still be fresh. IME a car with north of 80k on the dial will likely need a thorough suspension overhall. At which point you may want to consider going down the uprated route like coilovers etc.
The bottom line is that the E36 was designed to be more of a GT than a track warrior as per BMW's marketting strategy to chase greater sales. However, a couple of tweaks can turn it into a very capable machine. Therefore, if you spend 7-8k on a decent one and then 2-3k sorting the suspension/brakes, you will have a far more capable car than a standard E46 M3 - of which decent ones still command 16k +
Put simply, the E36 is a bit of a bargain right now.
As for performance, the example you drove was either knackered or you're expecting too much. Was the Vanos stillworking on car you had a shot in? If it didn't start to pull hard from 2.5k revs then the answer is probably yes. From 5k revs + it really does start to shift.
In the real world, there is no difference between the performance of the E46 ad the E36. What's more, a simple remap combined with breathing mods will release some healthy horsepower that is harder to achieve from the S54 engined E46.
Please feel free to drop me a line if you need more info. I'd be delighted to help.
I reckon there has never been a better time to buy the E36 M3. They have been dropping in value steadily for the past few years, but good examples have stabalised now, and are not depreciating any more. I reckon good examples might even start to creep up in value over the coming year or so. I bought my E36 M3 Evo six months ago, and the value over here now, compared to when i bought has risen about €500-€1000. I think it could be a good little investment to purchase now, rather than wait.
Just my 2 cents
Just my 2 cents
Mike_C said:
UPDATE: went and test drove one this morning. To be honest, it was just the closest one to home on autotrader rather than one I'd actually really like, and I wasn't that impressed.
To be fair, it had done 126,000 miles which is way more than I'd go for - it didn't say the mileage in the advert, but I'd be looking for a mint low-miler at around 50,000 miles so that has to be taken into account.
First impressions - fired up immediately, lovely smooth engine. Those "Vader" leather seats are excellent and the cabin is nice. It also drove nicely round town, although the clutch biting point is very low - apparently this is common to all M3's, I assume it is good for track work but less so for road use IMO.
It wasn't that quick, though. Certainly not on the same level as the E46 thats for sure. I'm not sure if it was just this example, but not a lot happened below 4,000rpm - in fact, not until 5,000rpm did anything really happen, and when it did it was certainly quick but not "oh my god this quick" if that makes sense!
Also, the suspension was suitably firm but it meant it skipped about a lot on our slightly uneven tarmac and potholed roads, and it also seemed to tramline quite heavily.
Now, i'm not sure if this is just a tatty example (although the bodywork looked ok and apparently it has a FBMWSH) or if this is common to all E36 M3's - any thoughts?
Hi Mike, you be hard pushed to find one with sub 70k!?To be fair, it had done 126,000 miles which is way more than I'd go for - it didn't say the mileage in the advert, but I'd be looking for a mint low-miler at around 50,000 miles so that has to be taken into account.
First impressions - fired up immediately, lovely smooth engine. Those "Vader" leather seats are excellent and the cabin is nice. It also drove nicely round town, although the clutch biting point is very low - apparently this is common to all M3's, I assume it is good for track work but less so for road use IMO.
It wasn't that quick, though. Certainly not on the same level as the E46 thats for sure. I'm not sure if it was just this example, but not a lot happened below 4,000rpm - in fact, not until 5,000rpm did anything really happen, and when it did it was certainly quick but not "oh my god this quick" if that makes sense!
Also, the suspension was suitably firm but it meant it skipped about a lot on our slightly uneven tarmac and potholed roads, and it also seemed to tramline quite heavily.
Now, i'm not sure if this is just a tatty example (although the bodywork looked ok and apparently it has a FBMWSH) or if this is common to all E36 M3's - any thoughts?
The Engines make a bit nof noise around idle 1-2000 rpm with the Vanos unit, but make sure it kicks in at 2300 and then goes bannanas at 5000 - 7600
My'n is always run on Tesco 99. I'm sure it makes a 5% difference in power.
I dispatched an E46 M3 Cab up to 90. WRX STI couldn't shake me off his tail!
And i'm still waiting for my Dave F induction kit.
Don't bother chipping it. It won't make much difference.
You should be thinking when you boot it that this is a damn quick car for the money and not much else will be able to keep up! I love my'n it does my 40 mile work commute with ease and keeps me grinning when needs be.
The car will tramline a lot, this is normal. Most cars with low profiles do this to a greater or lesser extent.
Try get one with the five spoke polished M-tech rims. And leather is a must.
This video would indicate that the E36 is quicker at the top end than the E46:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ss2FgMiv2fo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9NlXXqgNfro
It's not scientific of course, but shows that the straight line pace is near identical.
I hope to be getting one soon as they are amazing value at the moment and good ones should keep there value well I would hope.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ss2FgMiv2fo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9NlXXqgNfro
It's not scientific of course, but shows that the straight line pace is near identical.
I hope to be getting one soon as they are amazing value at the moment and good ones should keep there value well I would hope.
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