E46M3CS A/P Brakes Post Silverstone Review..!

[RatBoy M3CS]

Well like most people i guess, i tried tracking stock brakes, which were miserable, great on the road, but thats where it ends.. then i tried ferodo ds2500 fronts, and clean fluid.. a 200 quid fix i thought.., then i watched a guy at bedford nearly kill himself when he ran out of pad material, boiled his fluid, and have total brake failure...
As for the handling, i was tired of cornering on the door handles too..

This caused me much pain and desion making, which ultimately led me to Thorney Motorsport in MK for some advice, resulting in a set of 4 AP's and a KW3 set of adjustable dampers -30mm fr/-40mm rear..

Silverstone on Saturday, shakedown.. I can now pass on this advice having tried other possible fixes, DONT.. save your 2-300 quid, no matter what pads you use, you will not get near a set of A/P's .. not even close, if you can run to it, do the upgrade, its a big investment for certain, but the results are outstanding.. reeling in hot porsches on the brakes makes for a smile that lasts all day..! i even had a Murcialago into Copse..Evo FQ's, Scoobies.. dusted.. stock C2's, C4's..
The dampers are fantastic, it corners flat now, once we would had upped the bump settings, (alegedeley) gaining 5 seconds over my last outing getting to grips with it all with much more to come.

http://www.thorneymotorsport.co.uk/tuning/BMW_Tuni...

[taffyracer]

RatBoy M3CS said:

DONT.. save your 2-300 quid, no matter what pads you use, you will not get near a set of A/P's

Totally disagree, you used the wrong pads, 2500 are crap at best, I used to track my old E46M3 all the time on RS29's with AP fluid and it was perfectly fine, no fade at all and 95% as good as any AP set up, AP's are excellent, but the extra braking is not 3x as much as a decent OEM set up

[RatBoy M3CS]

Fair point... I didnt try this combination of pads... so i cant comment on them, my comparison was on my exp with OEM pads calipers and the DS2500 ones, maybe the pagid solution is a fair bit better, i just didnt want to be in the position of risking a break failure that i witnessed at Bedford.. and i gained a lot of confidence knowing my AP's were not going to let me down, your experience maybe different to this, but i comment on my own experiences only..

I was intersted at your description of DS2500 as crap tho' as they come as std in the A/P's and they have leant a few things about brakes in their 50+ years as a manufacturer..?

Horses for courses i guess, track pads on the road are a bad idea, and i need them to work cold and wet too... was your E46 track car 300kg lighter than my stock one i wonder..?

Can we agree on the dampers instead.. !

[dan101smith]

I've been running RS29s on my 328i - I was going to get some for my M3, but they squeal far too much for road use. Is there a way to reduce this?

[taffyracer]

Squealing is part of it unfortunately. 2500 come with the AP's as they are great pads for bedding discs in with, my E46 was standard and I also had Ap's on the car, as I did on my E36 racer, the difference really wasn't that huge over OEM with decent pads, fluid and hoses, better yes but not 3x better, I had them on there because I had a set returned by a customer, otherwise I wouldn't have bothered

[MrOnTheRopes]

The DS2500 are just pretty good fast-road pads, and they're quiet if you can't stand the squeal you get from most others. They're not good pads for track use.

[RatBoy M3CS]

So there we have it ... DS2500's you can use on the track in decent calipers, and they are quiet enough to run on the road without winding you up..

Pagids are not quite so good, but pretty good on the track in OEM calipers, with decent hoses and fluid as the more expensive option, but squeel like a piggy and will drive you nuts on the road... and dont respond in the cold first application..

Decisions decisions.. is not all about ultimate braking power unless you have a bespoke track car tho, on the road i have found the AP's to be smoother and you dont get the noise from them like the OEM drilled disc ones that sound like they are really trying when you stand on them...

You pay your money and make your choice and all...

[taffyracer]

The Pagid RS29's work VERY well from cold, that's why they are so good, they also last for ages, nothing for the money that does it all comes close, they squeal but they work and that is the point isn't it, it's not a case of paying your money and all that, the fact is that AP's are not 3x better than an OEM set up with decent pads, fluid and hoses, don't get me wrong I love AP's kit, part of the reason why I sell them and relied on them on many occasion but there is so much crap banded about simply to make sales, the truth is that there is nothing inherently wrong with OEM brakes when upgraded properly, if you want AP's then great but don't think they are that much better because they are not

[Chris_S]

I upgraded from standard OEM to RS29 pads & dot 5.1 fluid on my M3 CSL. The braking was like night and day (still on OEM discs). The difference was unbelievable. I never expected a heavy road car (as opposed to a Caterham/Elise) could brake that quickly. Very impressed. BUT, they squealed like a bus when in traffic. Well, they are for endurance racing not road use. I've not tried the AP's although many people swear by them.

I'm having this debate with myself now for my Z4MC. Whether to go RS29's & fluid (as the discs are the same as my old CSL) or go full AP. I plan to do quite a few track days. The squeal could be an issue for me as my wife needs to drive the car also (she hated the CSL sqealing).

Has anyone tried Pagid's road/track compromised pads: RS421 ? Compared to RS29's?

Chris

[RLK500]

I have the (RS4) Blues in my E30 M3 which are a step up from the road/track compromise pads. They are superb in conjunctiom with AP's I have fitted.

[RatBoy M3CS]

The old braking hornets nest opened again..

I take onboard taffyracers comments, the AP's are not 3 times as good as the £1000 Pagid upgrade..accepted.. but to me and for what i want them to do they are worth it even if they are only 10% better, they work hot and cold on my DS2500's dont squeel which would drive me up the pole and down again.. I have total confidence in them and they are quieter than my old OEM set up.
I didn't try the Pagid route as an upgrade, as i didnt want screeching in my ears everytime i braked, and i wasnt prepared to live with this just to get a good track ready solution, so i went down the other route...

Depends on personal preference ultimately i guess, and what you can and cant live with everyday..

[simple simon]

Changed mine to aps and I would agree with you, would never consider STD OEM?
Again. I find 2500 pads quite good, done 25 laps at the ring and donnington
Runs 1.20 laps at donnington fine, still good life in pads.
I guess that’s why most people that race use OEM brakes! ( he he only kidding)

Did you go for club sport v3 kws?

[MrOnTheRopes]

1m20s is good going, Simon. Standard car? (apart from the brakes obviously)

[RatBoy M3CS]

At last.. some one agrees with me..!

I went for the KW3's.. the clubsport ones, i understand are very similar but with adjustable turret tops for castor a camber, its a huge improvement, the OEM ones felt like they just quit when i showed them a corner in comparison..! it corners flat now.. once i played with the bump and rebound settings a few times..! the front track is 20mm wider too, but i believe this is more to accomodate the calipers than to intentionally wide track it ..

Im not trying to make a race car tho', but a car i can run every day, that drives round corners, stops on a sixpence, and one i can track when i feel like it without doin too many adjustments and changing brake pads to get it to stop.. and if it can punch above its weight on the circuit well thats makes me smile too..

[dazren]

Good to hear you're getting on with them.

I had an AP BBK put on my M5 last february at Thorneymotorsport, together with pagid pads stuck on the rear axle and the set up has been superb. It's reassuring to know when heading off for a long weekend's hard driving that I won't be getting the brake fade I had with the standard setup.

As for could I have got an improvement just modding the standard set up. Undoubtably yes. Was it worth going the full BBK route? to me yes, If I'm going to drive a car quickly I want to know it's been well maintained and that I've made the car as safe is it can be. An enhanced AP, stoptech, movit etc BBK does that IMHO.

DAZ

Edited by dazren on Tuesday 4th March 18:11

[taffyracer]

but no one is talking about standard set up are they, OEM discs IMO are better quality than the AP discs, OEM when combined with something like RS29's or a decent Mintex F range pads and some SRF has hugely improved stopping power over standard, we're not comparing appples with apples here, this is not an argument of money for me, I have had both, tracked and raced various differnet AP incarnations, I understand the quality of these items better than most, I just hand on heart don't believe that an AP kit is really any better than a £400 upgraded OEM system around a track on a trackday in a road car

[RatBoy M3CS]

I hear what your saying taffy racer, but my car comes in at 1550kg with a full tank of fuel, plus me and in most cases a customer or friend sat next to me, 1700kg ish..
For me, I would rather have 5 or 10% overkill with too much braking power in reserve than run short of it at 130mph..!

I havent tried the Pagid setup, and perhaps when we meet you could demonstrate this..? i note your experience here, but i find it difficult to understand how a single piston sliding caliper set up can come close to 6 progressive pistons pressing on a pad with double the area footprint..?

For competitive circuit racing applications, like yours, its the little bit extra that means the difference between 1st and 10th isnt it..? not to mention the unsprung weight difference, the AP setup is way lighter for the 4 corners maybe 20kg for a set..?

[simple simon]

My car is STD CSL

But i do fancy kw3 club sport as you have, I would love to have both cars, i.e. STD brakes with the upgrade mentioned and a car with 6 pot aps on track at the same time.
Perhaps we could save quite a lot of people some dosh, and have a lot of fun at the same time.

Any one going to the ring in may. The 15 ish??

[RLK500]

It's interesting that reduced unsprung weight is mentioned because the ride in my E30 with Leda coilovers improved dramatically after fitting the AP's. The pair of calipers and disks together probably weigh about the same as one standard corner. I would never go back to stock brakes and will never buy another M car until BMW put proper brakes on 50K+ cars, like every other manufacturer.

[taffyracer]

[quote=RatBoy M3CS]I hear what your saying taffy racer, but my car comes in at 1550kg with a full tank of fuel, plus me and in most cases a customer or friend sat next to me, 1700kg ish..
For me, I would rather have 5 or 10% overkill with too much braking power in reserve than run short of it at 130mph..!I/quote]

So was mine, it was a standard E46 M3, this is what i'm saying, the saving in weight is beneficial granted and that does have a bearing on the braking, albeit small, the difference is no more than 5% at best, 5% for those that can extract the performance of an AP set up, negligible for the rest, other factors will come into play well before the surface area has a chance to make a difference