Discussion
M3_DM said:
It already seems the E92 M3 is a much more capable car than the E46 M3 in standard form.
This is true, but that's progress over time. I think that the new car has had a luke warm reception compared to the E46 at launch. The old car enjoyed a position at the very top of it's class for quite some time, with very little competition from the like of Mercedes and Audi. Today it's a completely different story with the likes of the RS4, and soon to be launched C63 AMG giving BMW a serious headache.IMHO, the traits that make these cars more capable, also detract from the overall experience - something controversialy bourne out in the recent EVO M car test. Very subjective - Yes, but probably the likely opinion of the 'Enthusiast' owner. The new car is more 'all car to all men' - a fantastic achievement, but much the same as cars like the 911 TT, not likely to make my short list (even if funds were available
) Hence my opinion I guessPersonally I think the press made their mind up on the new M3 before they had even seen it. I think they were determined not to like it from the start. I myself have criticised the way it looks, and at the moment still prefer the looks of the E46, inside and out, but I don't think the M3 has ever really been about looks. You can't say that any generation M3 looks particularly beautiful. As a car and in the way it drives it seems to be a success. New owners have commented on improved road holding, braking, power and noise over the old car, and this essentially is what the M3 is about.
It was always up against it with the massive success of the E46, and like you said the competition has come on leaps and bounds so it was unrealistic to assume the M3 would be hugely better than all of its competition. IMO, looks aside, its still the best performance car on the road for £50,000 and still nothing can touch it for that price. I don't doubt the engine is once again the best in its class too.
It was always up against it with the massive success of the E46, and like you said the competition has come on leaps and bounds so it was unrealistic to assume the M3 would be hugely better than all of its competition. IMO, looks aside, its still the best performance car on the road for £50,000 and still nothing can touch it for that price. I don't doubt the engine is once again the best in its class too.
M3_DM said:
its still the best performance car on the road for £50,000 and still nothing can touch it for that price. I don't doubt the engine is once again the best in its class too.
Having not driven the new car, I can't really comment, but I drove the RS4 very recently, and I would doubt that the new car holds a significant advantage. In fact, I think the press are devided some prefer the RS4, others, the M3. I think the problem is that the RS4 has been around for getting on 2 years, and the public expected the new M3 to be a step forward. BMW have produced what appears to be a fantastically rounded car, but I think 'we' were hoping for something a little more focused.Edited by mbutchers on Friday 5th October 17:38
The M3 has never been focused. If you want focus and a car that will stick to the road like a magnet buy an RS4 or an Evo or Impreza. If you want a luxury 4 seater that you can power slide around corners and have a good compromise between comfort and handling then go for the M3. If you want an M3 thats going to attempt to compete with Porsche handling then it'll have to be a CSL.
M3_DM said:
The M3 has never been focused. If you want focus and a car that will stick to the road like a magnet buy an RS4 or an Evo or Impreza. If you want a luxury 4 seater that you can power slide around corners and have a good compromise between comfort and handling then go for the M3. If you want an M3 thats going to attempt to compete with Porsche handling then it'll have to be a CSL.
Good point for discussion this - who thinks the RS4 is a better car than the M3 and why? Oh and while wee're there do you think the M3 has gone soft? Oh, and while I think of it, does the M3 still represent good value for money? Oh, why has the M division changed philosophy?
I thin it's about time we had the discussions out in the open.
Oh, by the way, do you think the M3 is too heavy?
Olf said:
M3_DM said:
The M3 has never been focused. If you want focus and a car that will stick to the road like a magnet buy an RS4 or an Evo or Impreza. If you want a luxury 4 seater that you can power slide around corners and have a good compromise between comfort and handling then go for the M3. If you want an M3 thats going to attempt to compete with Porsche handling then it'll have to be a CSL.
Good point for discussion this - who thinks the RS4 is a better car than the M3 and why? Oh and while wee're there do you think the M3 has gone soft? Oh, and while I think of it, does the M3 still represent good value for money? Oh, why has the M division changed philosophy?
I think it's about time we had the discussions out in the open.
Oh, by the way, do you think the M3 is too heavy?
Olf said:
Good point for discussion this - who thinks the RS4 is a better car than the M3 and why? Oh and while wee're there do you think the M3 has gone soft? Oh, and while I think of it, does the M3 still represent good value for money?
Oh, why has the M division changed philosophy?
I thin it's about time we had the discussions out in the open.
Oh, by the way, do you think the M3 is too heavy?
No need for the sarcasm Olf - I was just having a bit of a chat with M3-DM here.Oh, why has the M division changed philosophy?
I thin it's about time we had the discussions out in the open.
Oh, by the way, do you think the M3 is too heavy?
Sorry to sound so tedious old chap!
Sorry. I just think we've utterly torn the arse out of the E92 M3 conversation. It's generally getting into and ruining every thread about M3's or M5's. Some wise guy (usually and RS4 test pilot) will come and tell us all that the E60 is crap because the E39 had vanos issues or the M3 is too fat for it's own good etc, it's just getting toooooo tiresome for words.
Olf said:
Sorry. I just think we've utterly torn the arse out of the E92 M3 conversation. It's generally getting into and ruining every thread about M3's or M5's. Some wise guy (usually and RS4 test pilot) will come and tell us all that the E60 is crap because the E39 had vanos issues or the M3 is too fat for it's own good etc, it's just getting toooooo tiresome for words.
Fair point - I guess we went a little off subject.....Back on topic, the proof is in the pudding I suppose.
Posted a 'For Sale' Ad at lunchtime yesterday, and it sold at 9pm last night. For the asking price. Taking running costs & servicing out, this is very cost effective motoring. The deal reflects depreciation of £1,000 over 16 months and 10,000 miles.
Figures speak for themselves.
I love these cars and will doubtless return to the fold, will I have to pay even more for a similarly good example in 2 years time?????
Posted a 'For Sale' Ad at lunchtime yesterday, and it sold at 9pm last night. For the asking price. Taking running costs & servicing out, this is very cost effective motoring. The deal reflects depreciation of £1,000 over 16 months and 10,000 miles.
Figures speak for themselves.
I love these cars and will doubtless return to the fold, will I have to pay even more for a similarly good example in 2 years time?????
Olf said:
Good point for discussion this - who thinks the RS4 is a better car than the M3 and why? Oh and while wee're there do you think the M3 has gone soft? Oh, and while I think of it, does the M3 still represent good value for money?
Oh, why has the M division changed philosophy?
I thin it's about time we had the discussions out in the open.
Oh, by the way, do you think the M3 is too heavy?
RS4 feels an easier car to live with on a daily basis and feels a little more special at road speeds. The M3 was quicker though (point to point) and slightly faster in a straight line too. Oh, why has the M division changed philosophy?
I thin it's about time we had the discussions out in the open.
Oh, by the way, do you think the M3 is too heavy?
The M3 hasn't gone soft, not compared to the E46 M3, unless of course you view the chainsaw exhaust sound of the E46 as some hard-as-nails like tatoo. The E92 M3 rolls less, goes quicker and sounds lovely. Throttle response is less sharp but then I always felt the E46 had such a sharp throttle to make it 'feel' quick. The E92 M3 retains (and improves) upon the E46's driveability despite another 80 bhp.
Also the E92 M3 does not feel heavier than the E46. I still haven't put them both on scales side-by-side but the E92 M3 does not feel 80kg more.
DoctorD said:
Olf said:
Good point for discussion this - who thinks the RS4 is a better car than the M3 and why? Oh and while wee're there do you think the M3 has gone soft? Oh, and while I think of it, does the M3 still represent good value for money?
Oh, why has the M division changed philosophy?
I thin it's about time we had the discussions out in the open.
Oh, by the way, do you think the M3 is too heavy?
RS4 feels an easier car to live with on a daily basis and feels a little more special at road speeds. The M3 was quicker though (point to point) and slightly faster in a straight line too. Oh, why has the M division changed philosophy?
I thin it's about time we had the discussions out in the open.
Oh, by the way, do you think the M3 is too heavy?
The M3 hasn't gone soft, not compared to the E46 M3, unless of course you view the chainsaw exhaust sound of the E46 as some hard-as-nails like tatoo. The E92 M3 rolls less, goes quicker and sounds lovely. Throttle response is less sharp but then I always felt the E46 had such a sharp throttle to make it 'feel' quick. The E92 M3 retains (and improves) upon the E46's driveability despite another 80 bhp.
Also the E92 M3 does not feel heavier than the E46. I still haven't put them both on scales side-by-side but the E92 M3 does not feel 80kg more.
StevieS said:
Is your comparison with the M3 or CSL??
Comparison was between E92 M3 and RS4. I gained my viewpoint after driving the RS4 down to Marbella and comparing it with the E92 M3, which we subsequently published in the magazine. Although I also had reviewed the E92 M3 against all the other M-cars (including CSL) last month in Wales. You may have seen the test in this month's magazine. Edited by DoctorD on Saturday 6th October 19:47
Drove a RS4 after selling my E46 M3 and to be honest did not know what all the excitement has been about. Plenty power and grip with nice interior but boring to drive with woolley brakes - did not feel as 'in touch' with what was going on underneath me like in the M3. Overall disappointed. Ended up buying a CSL instead and will hang on to it until the new CSL is launched. Was booked to drive new M3 the other day .... didnt bother going.
tonto1 said:
Correct me if I'm DoctorD but in this test did the CSL not a ball hair away from actually topping this test, surpassing the E92 in the process?
Yes. From my perspective the CSL was the most desirable car of the collection, surpassing the E30 M3 in terms of being an 'event' to just get in and drive. The E92 M3 was the best of the modern M-cars, and enjoyable to drive, but I was surprised to drive away from the test (in the CSL) and feel like I'd picked the best car of the bunch. The CSL was marked down as usual on its SMG gearbox, although everyone admitted that it had the best version of SMG and did actually suit the car. The E30 M3 was awarded top laurels because it was so easy to obtain the maximum from, but it would have been easy to mark it down for it's weak engine, restrictive gear change and less than exotic feel. DoctorD said:
The E30 M3 was awarded top laurels because it was so easy to obtain the maximum from, but it would have been easy to mark it down for it's weak engine, restrictive gear change and less than exotic feel.
For the cubic capacity, the engine output surely is more than respectable and I am not sure the weak engine description is appropriate. I agree the gear change takes getting used to, and I have heard many tales of inadvertently changing from 4th to 3rd instead of 5th.
Less than exotic feel? So which BMW model would you consider exotic then?
PPPPPP said:
DoctorD said:
The E30 M3 was awarded top laurels because it was so easy to obtain the maximum from, but it would have been easy to mark it down for it's weak engine, restrictive gear change and less than exotic feel.
For the cubic capacity, the engine output surely is more than respectable and I am not sure the weak engine description is appropriate. I agree the gear change takes getting used to, and I have heard many tales of inadvertently changing from 4th to 3rd instead of 5th.
Less than exotic feel? So which BMW model would you consider exotic then?
oola said:
PPPPPP said:
DoctorD said:
The E30 M3 was awarded top laurels because it was so easy to obtain the maximum from, but it would have been easy to mark it down for it's weak engine, restrictive gear change and less than exotic feel.
For the cubic capacity, the engine output surely is more than respectable and I am not sure the weak engine description is appropriate. I agree the gear change takes getting used to, and I have heard many tales of inadvertently changing from 4th to 3rd instead of 5th.
Less than exotic feel? So which BMW model would you consider exotic then?
Poppycock.
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