Unusual job on the bench today
Discussion
Kaelic said:
One of my favorite threads ever.
Can I ask Eddie
when you mix up different qualities of gold (14,18,22 carat etc) what do you then hallmark it as? I seem to remember you can do your own hallmarking on your items.
Thanks
Good question, well asked!Can I ask Eddie
when you mix up different qualities of gold (14,18,22 carat etc) what do you then hallmark it as? I seem to remember you can do your own hallmarking on your items.
Thanks
So, when mixing golds you obviously can't guarantee the carat you get at the end of the melt (unless you use only 100% proven materials). You can work it out on a weight vs carat basis but if you're looking to achieve an accurate figure then you will struggle without a proper testing lab. Luckily in the UK we only really deal in 3 grades of gold so we only have 3 options when it comes to assay and stamping.
When making items using secondhand or customers old gold you usually get away with an agreed (between customer and goldsmith) average based on what's going in the pot. If mixing 22ct and 18ct we would either stamp it 18ct or 750. This shows a minimum value based on the fact that everything you've added was at least 18ct. When mixing 18ct with 9ct you may achieve 14ct or higher but in the UK we have no assay mark for it. As a jeweller I'd stamp this 9ct or 375 to show its minimum value.
The complication arrises when you have to explain to customers about mixing old golds of the same carat. For example, many people ask to melt down old wedding and engagement rings, 18ct and 22ct are the most common. For 18ct they may ask for a new 18ct engagement mount or a wedding style band. For 22ct they usually ask for a new wedding band. The problem comes when there is evidence of previous repair work.
For 22ct gold many less experienced or trustworthy jewellers will use 18ct solder to join the ends or make repairs as it's a lower temperature melt and poses less risk to the item. It's not best practice but it's a common thing. The same applies when you have old 18ct engagement rings. Lots of jewellers will use 9ct or 14ct solder to fit claws, sizing pieces or make repairs. This is to reduce the risk to stones or just to bring down costs. So how does this affect assay?
If you mix low carat solder with the original metals in a melt you effectively lower the overall carat of the melt. Explaining this to customers is tricky and they need to be aware that if the items go to assay after being remade they may fail and be marked lower than they hoped. To get around this we may stamp the metal at the desired carat. The difference will be minimal (17ct vs 18 or 21ct vs 22ct) and the item retains more of its crap value as a result. Assay costs money and the charge is made whether it passes or fails. Customers these days find it hard parting with anything other than essential outlay.
My rule of thumb:
New items get made with raw materials and are assayed by London or Birmingham.
Items with more than one metal (see 2 tone bands) can either be stamped to show both metals or assayed at customers risk.
Mixed metals either stamped at a calculated and agreed value or assayed at the risk it fails and gets stamped lower.
How does this affect metals at scrap? Most good jewellers will have an acid testing kit. Hallmarked goods are usually reliable but I will more often than not test a metal at a depth below the surface (risk of plated metals passing surface test). Anything not assayed is tested to show true carat and priced accordingly. For large volume / large value I will either send to the refiners to have the metal sorted and valued or send to assay and have it xray tested.
All very simple really
Back to the job, here is a signet ring I made using a customers 22ct bands inherited from his mum. This is the complicated way to do it. Normally we'd make a cast using common patterns but this job was to be complete using the customers photograph and using only 15g of material. Not nearly enough for a cast. The gold gets rolled and re-rolled multiple times in order to make the final product.
Eddie
The picture:
The job:
Edited by ecain63 on Thursday 7th September 21:11
Looking through the thread I am Genuinelly impressed with your work.
I need to get some work done soon having my engagement watch polished and my wife's wedding ring having a lost stone replaced (you'd think a Tiffany platinum ring wouldn't ever loose a stone) think a trip to you is going to be needed.... Often its hard to know who to trust to get work like this done on cherished items so seeing your work quality here is a fantastic advert.
BTW I now have 2 terminaly broken M5s on my drive... should have listened and had a warranty eh lol
I need to get some work done soon having my engagement watch polished and my wife's wedding ring having a lost stone replaced (you'd think a Tiffany platinum ring wouldn't ever loose a stone) think a trip to you is going to be needed.... Often its hard to know who to trust to get work like this done on cherished items so seeing your work quality here is a fantastic advert.
BTW I now have 2 terminaly broken M5s on my drive... should have listened and had a warranty eh lol
andygtt said:
Looking through the thread I am Genuinelly impressed with your work.
I need to get some work done soon having my engagement watch polished and my wife's wedding ring having a lost stone replaced (you'd think a Tiffany platinum ring wouldn't ever loose a stone) think a trip to you is going to be needed.... Often its hard to know who to trust to get work like this done on cherished items so seeing your work quality here is a fantastic advert.
BTW I now have 2 terminaly broken M5s on my drive... should have listened and had a warranty eh lol
Happy to help mate. Just give me a buzz when you want to make that trip.I need to get some work done soon having my engagement watch polished and my wife's wedding ring having a lost stone replaced (you'd think a Tiffany platinum ring wouldn't ever loose a stone) think a trip to you is going to be needed.... Often its hard to know who to trust to get work like this done on cherished items so seeing your work quality here is a fantastic advert.
BTW I now have 2 terminaly broken M5s on my drive... should have listened and had a warranty eh lol
How are you getting on with the Capri V10? I must admit I do miss the M5, but I far from miss the worry of financial ruin and those hideous MPG figures.
ecain63 said:
Happy to help mate. Just give me a buzz when you want to make that trip.
How are you getting on with the Capri V10? I must admit I do miss the M5, but I far from miss the worry of financial ruin and those hideous MPG figures.
Will do, is there a link to your company?How are you getting on with the Capri V10? I must admit I do miss the M5, but I far from miss the worry of financial ruin and those hideous MPG figures.
Made the Carbon body for the Capri few months ago and nearly finished the chassis so its coming along well, trying to find a solution to replace the vanos pump and solenoids yet retain the vanos so i can eliminate that expensive potential issue.
I miss driving my M5's, never cared much about the silly fuel economy (designed a 100litre fuel tank for the capri)... fortunatelly i lived by my words and ensured i had enough money to completely write the cars off if they broke. I had my fingers properly burnt with that car.
Wife chose the replacement car (felt only fair) so we run a new fiesta ST now lol
andygtt said:
ecain63 said:
Happy to help mate. Just give me a buzz when you want to make that trip.
How are you getting on with the Capri V10? I must admit I do miss the M5, but I far from miss the worry of financial ruin and those hideous MPG figures.
Will do, is there a link to your company?How are you getting on with the Capri V10? I must admit I do miss the M5, but I far from miss the worry of financial ruin and those hideous MPG figures.
Made the Carbon body for the Capri few months ago and nearly finished the chassis so its coming along well, trying to find a solution to replace the vanos pump and solenoids yet retain the vanos so i can eliminate that expensive potential issue.
I miss driving my M5's, never cared much about the silly fuel economy (designed a 100litre fuel tank for the capri)... fortunatelly i lived by my words and ensured i had enough money to completely write the cars off if they broke. I had my fingers properly burnt with that car.
Wife chose the replacement car (felt only fair) so we run a new fiesta ST now lol
https://www.facebook.com/J-R-Jewellery-21868007824...
You should have designed a 100ltr tank for the M5 and sold it to BMW. The standard one was a joke!
It's been a busy week again. Had a few new builds to do as well as some modifications and refurbishments (on top of the daily stuff). Here's a few of them in brief:
A friend of mine from my forces days is getting engaged soon and needed a ring to wow his missus. After some crazy London quotes he sent me the desired design. With a little artistic license I created something similar, at 4/6 the price but with values exceeding the original.
Cost was a bit of a hurdle for my customer so we / I took the decision to modify an existing pattern. A rose gold mount designed for a 0.50ct centre stone was produced in cast and the shoulders set with princess cuts. The centre setting was then removed:
The centre stone is a 1.07ct oval. The twist with it is that he needs it set sideways rather than up and down. So I made an oval setting in rose gold and fitted it:
With the metalwork in place the next job was to set the stone. It's quite a robust cut so setting it in a rubover is easy enough:
To avoid the complications of copying designs I've added in a couple of subtle differences. The setting becomes a semi rubover by simply cutting the setting above the shoulder stones. To my eye this actually works better. Here it is from being buffed to finished:
Another job was to melt down a customers old bulldog pendent and make some other items. I made 2 x heavy wedding bands which you've seen me do before. The other job was to produce a (loosely spec'd) Celtic cross with whatever remained of the metal. It went like this:
I gave it a frosted finish to make it a little more unusual:
There's also been a couple of refurbishment jobs on the bench. This Cartier Love bangle was a rare visitor:
And a Patek in for a new battery of all things:
This month I've also had a good few dealings with customers looking to make the choice between using an internet diamond supplier (usual suspects) and an independent like myself. My suppliers (and a couple of my trade partners) and I got together on the phones this morning to thrash out why the internet and it's daft prices are so much the 'in thing' at the moment. Not just to discuss the obvious stuff but to accumulate some knowledge so everyone was aware of the facts around the figures. I know I've touched on it in some detail before but If anyone is seriously looking at buying from the usual online providers they are more than welcome to give me a call before hand. There is nothing wrong with what they are doing so please don't think I'm looking to point fingers or steal sales. The purpose of my post is to point out that there is more to the items than just the certificates and the 'protection' they provide. There are very good reasons why the highstreet cannot compete with the prices and it's not because the highsteet is overpriced (independents anyway).
Eddie
A friend of mine from my forces days is getting engaged soon and needed a ring to wow his missus. After some crazy London quotes he sent me the desired design. With a little artistic license I created something similar, at 4/6 the price but with values exceeding the original.
Cost was a bit of a hurdle for my customer so we / I took the decision to modify an existing pattern. A rose gold mount designed for a 0.50ct centre stone was produced in cast and the shoulders set with princess cuts. The centre setting was then removed:
The centre stone is a 1.07ct oval. The twist with it is that he needs it set sideways rather than up and down. So I made an oval setting in rose gold and fitted it:
With the metalwork in place the next job was to set the stone. It's quite a robust cut so setting it in a rubover is easy enough:
To avoid the complications of copying designs I've added in a couple of subtle differences. The setting becomes a semi rubover by simply cutting the setting above the shoulder stones. To my eye this actually works better. Here it is from being buffed to finished:
Another job was to melt down a customers old bulldog pendent and make some other items. I made 2 x heavy wedding bands which you've seen me do before. The other job was to produce a (loosely spec'd) Celtic cross with whatever remained of the metal. It went like this:
I gave it a frosted finish to make it a little more unusual:
There's also been a couple of refurbishment jobs on the bench. This Cartier Love bangle was a rare visitor:
And a Patek in for a new battery of all things:
This month I've also had a good few dealings with customers looking to make the choice between using an internet diamond supplier (usual suspects) and an independent like myself. My suppliers (and a couple of my trade partners) and I got together on the phones this morning to thrash out why the internet and it's daft prices are so much the 'in thing' at the moment. Not just to discuss the obvious stuff but to accumulate some knowledge so everyone was aware of the facts around the figures. I know I've touched on it in some detail before but If anyone is seriously looking at buying from the usual online providers they are more than welcome to give me a call before hand. There is nothing wrong with what they are doing so please don't think I'm looking to point fingers or steal sales. The purpose of my post is to point out that there is more to the items than just the certificates and the 'protection' they provide. There are very good reasons why the highstreet cannot compete with the prices and it's not because the highsteet is overpriced (independents anyway).
Eddie
NDA said:
Interesting Patek - not seen one of those before.
Your point on diamonds is well made. Most people (me included) would not have a clue about buying diamonds - therefore it makes sense to buy from a trusted supplier to ensure you're getting quality.
Part of the problem is that people are buying with their internet knowledge rather than their heads / eyes. Price is a very big lever for a start, but the inclusion of the 'must have' GIA / IGI certificate is what snares more people than anything. I suppose you could say the full main dealer history on a used car is a similar reassurance. But is it really?Your point on diamonds is well made. Most people (me included) would not have a clue about buying diamonds - therefore it makes sense to buy from a trusted supplier to ensure you're getting quality.
If you (not you exactly, but a buyer) were to go car shopping with a blindfold on, would you buy the car that did everything you wanted it to, at the price you wanted it for if you couldn't see it before you handed over the funds? The salesman would tell you it ticked all the boxes and it felt like it did. On paper it had everything in proportion and performance on tap but because you want it at a price below normal list it could very well carry a slight drawback, a flaw if you will. You can tolerate the flaw while blinded because all the other boxes are ticked.
If I was to put a D colour, IF, XXX stone in the same park as a Bugatti Veyron I'd say very few people are actually buying a Veyron. Most people are making a compromise somewhere in the purchase because of cost. D, IF, XXX stones do everything perfectly but you pay for it.
Now, going back to the blindfolded shopping trip. There are loads of cars in your search because you've selected a spec that covers all your bases. You don't really know where the cars have come from because the dealer you've chosen only has access to other peoples stock. The cars appear good but you are basing the opinion only on the information put in front of you. The thing you do know for sure though is that the car choice is a compromise. Your cars have a flaw which brings it into your search listing. You know they have a flaw because you couldn't justify the Veyron and had to scale back and pick between the lesser models. Each of the lesser models has its flaw in a different place but because the flaws are of an equal severity you can't feel where it is with your blindfold on. You may get lucky though as there are likely to be a few good ones in there, with the flaw in the right place. You just need to roll that double-six!
So you've done some more reading and you've got a car you like the feel and sound of. You can afford it. The salesman tells you it does everything you want it to and it's ready to go. Do you buy it not knowing whether the flaw will ruin it for you when you take the blindfold off?
This is the thing with diamonds on the internet. Just because you've got a GIA or an IGI doesn't mean it's a great stone. 2 identical stones can be totally different to look at. A low grade cert stone can look much better than a better cert. SI graded stones should be cut to hide the inclusions and not have them sat in the middle of the table. The inclusions could be white or black so you don't really know if you'll see them even if the stone is well cut. Does the view from your car have a cornering obstruction caused by an overly large pillar, or are the buttons and knobs in the car so badly positioned that you can't use them unless the car is stationary. Not that you could see them with the blindfold on.
This the point I'm getting at.
The internet diamond dealers we see mentioned here so much don't own their own stones. They hoard the stock data of many other suppliers and sift them into appealing lists. They can't advise you on anything because they don't have the stock. They can only offer the certificate details and some fancy videos that show a fluffy version of the stone. Until you get the blindfold off you can't see where your car has its flaws. More often than not the car will have a dirty great scratch in the windscreen that won't fail an MOT because of its positioning, or the seats squeak when you move or go round corners. They aren't bad enough to drop the grading into the category below your criteria but they sure as hell look bad enough for you to wish you'd spent a few hundred quid more at a dealer who knew their stock list.
Edited by ecain63 on Thursday 14th September 22:42
desolate said:
Great thread - surely one of the best on here.
You mentioned something about Platinum being difficult to work with. My Mrs has some earrings that she never wears - could they be remodelled?
They are heavy and borderline Captain sparrow.
Platinum can be reworked if it doesn't need melting and reforming. It becomes brittle unless it is properly refined to remove any solder or contamination. Most jewellers don't have the facility to melt gold, let alone platinum. I've done it and got away with it a few times but the ratio of win vs lose is low with Plat. You mentioned something about Platinum being difficult to work with. My Mrs has some earrings that she never wears - could they be remodelled?
They are heavy and borderline Captain sparrow.
If it just needs cutting and reshaping / remodelling then I'm sure I can help but otherwise I'd advise fresh material
If I may thread derail ever so slightly, I did the whole internet search for diamonds after not finding the ring I was looking for in the shops. Fortunately however I stumbled across a small independent jeweler who was making his stuff in his shop which was great to watch.
I got to talking to him, he ordered in quite a fairly large selection of diamonds for me to choose from with him, and it was brilliant. Ended up with not the biggest diamond you'll ever see, but so many people notice the sparkle from it when in a restaurant or something.
The ring was personalized to us and had great after care as well. Made for a really enjoyable experience and all means so much more to us because of this.
I got to talking to him, he ordered in quite a fairly large selection of diamonds for me to choose from with him, and it was brilliant. Ended up with not the biggest diamond you'll ever see, but so many people notice the sparkle from it when in a restaurant or something.
The ring was personalized to us and had great after care as well. Made for a really enjoyable experience and all means so much more to us because of this.
snobetter said:
If I may thread derail ever so slightly, I did the whole internet search for diamonds after not finding the ring I was looking for in the shops. Fortunately however I stumbled across a small independent jeweler who was making his stuff in his shop which was great to watch.
I got to talking to him, he ordered in quite a fairly large selection of diamonds for me to choose from with him, and it was brilliant. Ended up with not the biggest diamond you'll ever see, but so many people notice the sparkle from it when in a restaurant or something.
The ring was personalized to us and had great after care as well. Made for a really enjoyable experience and all means so much more to us because of this.
So you bought from an independent and not off the internet? Good to hear. I got to talking to him, he ordered in quite a fairly large selection of diamonds for me to choose from with him, and it was brilliant. Ended up with not the biggest diamond you'll ever see, but so many people notice the sparkle from it when in a restaurant or something.
The ring was personalized to us and had great after care as well. Made for a really enjoyable experience and all means so much more to us because of this.
ecain63 said:
snobetter said:
If I may thread derail ever so slightly, I did the whole internet search for diamonds after not finding the ring I was looking for in the shops. Fortunately however I stumbled across a small independent jeweler who was making his stuff in his shop which was great to watch.
I got to talking to him, he ordered in quite a fairly large selection of diamonds for me to choose from with him, and it was brilliant. Ended up with not the biggest diamond you'll ever see, but so many people notice the sparkle from it when in a restaurant or something.
The ring was personalized to us and had great after care as well. Made for a really enjoyable experience and all means so much more to us because of this.
So you bought from an independent and not off the internet? Good to hear. I got to talking to him, he ordered in quite a fairly large selection of diamonds for me to choose from with him, and it was brilliant. Ended up with not the biggest diamond you'll ever see, but so many people notice the sparkle from it when in a restaurant or something.
The ring was personalized to us and had great after care as well. Made for a really enjoyable experience and all means so much more to us because of this.
Yes. We'd discussed budget, style etc. he then ordered a selection of sale or return diamonds all slightly different for me to compare, all fun and interesting and led to making the best decision i believe.
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