Your thoughts on fake watches

[TiggerBits]

EddieSteadyGo said:

The *average* salary in Geneva is over 100,000 CHF, so I am not sure it is that far over the top. Also, I've found Glassdoor (in an unrelated industry) to have reasonably good data.

I just had a look, and the average Swiss salary is about £45k, which is a lot more than the UK, but miles off of what some people are saying

[nikaiyo2]

TiggerBits said:

You live in a different world to most of us. A crew member in Mc Donalds earns national minimum wage, which is £7.83 an hour. I quoted £15, which is almost twice that.

Nope I used to employ people in Geneva, about a decade ago, we used to have to pay van drivers about £20 an hour. Ok they were freelance but at the time we were paying £10 in the Uk. We were paying well over the minimum wage as you literally can’t get anyone to work for it, well not with a driving license.

The average wage for a crew member in McDonald’s Geneva is €21 per hour according to glass door, I have no reason to disbelieve that. So in your world a van driver or burger flipper is valued higher than Rolex watch maker... who is in a different world?

[nikaiyo2]

TiggerBits said:

I thought the CEO was a man

Edited by TiggerBits on Tuesday 24th April 18:06

Oh do fk off, you think the CEO of a multi billion $ is on £110k a year? LOL.

[EddieSteadyGo]

TiggerBits said:

EddieSteadyGo said:

I'm with bigandclever on this one.

Have a look at this link....the median salary of a registered nurse for example is over 58,000 CHF which gives you some idea of where employment costs are currently in Switzerland.

https://www.payscale.com/research/CH/Location=Gene...

So I think the appropriate response on this point TiggerBits is something like, "that's interesting. Maybe I might have been mistaken on that..."

So you presume that all the staff in the Rolex factories are qualified horologists. Of course they are not. The vast majority of them will be trained monkeys who carry our menial tasks. In a factory of 100 workers I would be surprised if there are any more than a couple of actual horologists. If you ACTUALLY believe that an £8k Rolex justifies the cost, not to mention a £20k+ PP, then carry on believing it. It's your money, you spend it on what you like

Come on TiggerBits - let's be precise in what we are saying. The point the chap was making was that a Rolex horloger earns roughly Euro 90k. The info was based on Glassdoor data.

I've made no presumption suggesting all staff in Rolex factories are qualified horologists.

You have said you have a relative who earns £15 / hr at Rolex, implying (the way I read it) that they were a Rolex horloger.

Then I've referred to the average salary in Geneva (together with a source link later on) to put the 90k in context. You have replied with an average salary in Switzerland but with no link.

As to what I think is good value, I'm a complete dope from your perspective. I thought it was good value to spend well over £8k on my latest IWC, and well over £25k on my rose gold Vacheron. And to be honest, no-one but me really knows when they see them, which is just the way I like it

I no longer own a Rolex as I sold it a couple of years ago. However, fyi, I bought it retail and sold it privately to a chap 15 years later for more than I paid for it. Admittedly it was in great condition and was only lightly worn. But try doing that with your Viva...

[sidicks]

Another thread where Tiggerbits talks nonsense about stuff he doesn’t really understand to try and justify his purchase of ‘homage’ watches instead of the real thing that he actually can’t afford to buy in the first place?

How dull.

[Jayho]

TiggerBits said:

EddieSteadyGo said:

The *average* salary in Geneva is over 100,000 CHF, so I am not sure it is that far over the top. Also, I've found Glassdoor (in an unrelated industry) to have reasonably good data.

I just had a look, and the average Swiss salary is about £45k, which is a lot more than the UK, but miles off of what some people are saying

Ok let's work with the £45k you've found. At £15/hour your friends daughter made £27k a year. That is about the equivalent of a trained professional in the UK making £14k a year. I'm not sure about you, but I can't live on that at all. After tax that's probably about £1k a month. That would mean in my local area I would end up with £200 after rent, bills, council tax etc. Once I factor in fuel costs for the month it would leave me with about £40 for food and entertainment for the month. Why would anyone even consider working for a company like Rolex? Baffles me with that maths.

[Blown2CV]

LDN said:

lostkiwi said:

Same watch both times. It was inspected by a UK based dealer and also a dealer in Venice. Both pronounced it 'A really nice piece' but it was definitely a Chinese copy. The AD in Venice was very particular and inspected it under a loupe. I was with the guy who owned it on both occasions.

Yes, there are some fakes that can trick all but the very best.

and they are £50 to buy are they?

[xx99xx]

Pistom said:

xx99xx said:

Fake watches (fake anything) funds organised crime. That's got to be a bad thing?

Using that argument, you would struggle to buy anything.

Not all producers of copy items are involved with organised crime other than stealing IP.

I don't intentionally buy anything counterfeit and I've never struggled to buy the things I need.

Most decent fakes of anything are very good copies and require a decent amount of funds and are produced in huge volumes. Only organised criminal gangs have this sort of operation. Your average chav is unlikely to have a fake watch production line set up in his bedroom.

[hilly10]

The guy is trolling you lot just ignore him.

[lostkiwi]

Blown2CV said:

LDN said:

lostkiwi said:

Same watch both times. It was inspected by a UK based dealer and also a dealer in Venice. Both pronounced it 'A really nice piece' but it was definitely a Chinese copy. The AD in Venice was very particular and inspected it under a loupe. I was with the guy who owned it on both occasions.

Yes, there are some fakes that can trick all but the very best.

and they are £50 to buy are they?

Probably not but a lot cheaper than the real thing by at least a factor of 30....
(but who said anything about £50?)

[Blown2CV]

lostkiwi said:

Blown2CV said:

LDN said:

lostkiwi said:

Same watch both times. It was inspected by a UK based dealer and also a dealer in Venice. Both pronounced it 'A really nice piece' but it was definitely a Chinese copy. The AD in Venice was very particular and inspected it under a loupe. I was with the guy who owned it on both occasions.

Yes, there are some fakes that can trick all but the very best.

and they are £50 to buy are they?

Probably not but a lot cheaper than the real thing by at least a factor of 30....
(but who said anything about £50?)

the point is if the real thing is £5000 and the 'high quality' fakes are like £4000 then this doesn't say anything about the lower quality ones. In any case an excellent fake painting is still impressive and might fool lots of experts; but equally it is still fake. The art world hasn't suddenly gone ah fk it some fakes are pretty good so let's just not bother with authenticity and provenance of any painting any more. Fake people would be saying that it doesn't matter if that painting isn't by a real artist because they like it and the visitors to their house wouldn't know the difference.

[andy tims]

nikaiyo2 said:

TiggerBits said:

I thought the CEO was a man

Oh do fk off, you think the CEO of a multi billion $ is on £110k a year? LOL.

It's pathetic isn't it, but then most 12 years olds don't really understand how the real world works.

sidicks said:

Another thread where Tiggerbits talks nonsense about stuff he doesn’t really understand to try and justify his purchase of ‘homage’ watches instead of the real thing that he actually can’t afford to buy in the first place?

How dull.

As above, I'm convinced he's a school kid.

[anonymous-user]

LDN said:

Yes, there are some fakes that can trick all but the very best.

Indeed.

Any fake that costs less than £100ish is going to be absolute scrap metal and probably sold to you on a beach by the Looky Looky man.

However, a visit to forums such as 'RWI' will really open your eyes.

There are thousands of people out there who have a hobby of refining and crafting replica watches to such a standard that they would easily pass a cursory inspection by a watchmaker.

These people are extremely talented, and build watches that often feature varying amounts of genuine parts, these watches are referred to as 'Frankens'.

I've seen 'good' replicas sell from anywhere from £400-3000 depending on what it is. The ones that fetch £1500-3000 often contain many genuine parts such as strap, case, glass, dial, hands, crown, datewheel etc.

The reps costing £500 for say a Rolex Submariner, will easily pass off as real, be pressure tested to 200m waterproof, keep very good time, and will usually contain a quality Swiss Automatic movement such as an ETA.

I know all this because a friend of mine is into building watches and creating replicas, it's his hobby, and some of the stuff he has ended up with is quite amazing. He showed me the forums they all go on, and the build threads etc and it was really interesting.

For those people, it's not really about just fooling people into thinking you own a Rolex or whatever, it's a challenge to see who can craft the most flawless example.

[anonymous-user]

If I cannot afford the real deal I would not buy a fake. I cut my cloth accordingly and buy some thing legit but of humbler proportions.
I wouldn't be prepared to deceive anyone interested enough in the watch about it's origins.
I think get the best/nicest watch you can within the budget you have and the integrity and clarity of mind that gives will leave you happy.

[Blown2CV]

anonymous said:

[redacted]

and i think that's a reasonable position. The issue is that I think many people who buy 'fakes' might think to themselves "I really like that genuine thing but i can't afford it, so I will just get something a bit like it for a price I can tolerate" but instead they outwardly try and justify it differently; that this is the only decision they would ever make regardless of their wealth e.g. "Rolex are a rip off everyone who buys them is a mug!". Can't admit weakness, must exude success!!!

[LaurasOtherHalf]

Blown2CV said:

anonymous said:

[redacted]

and i think that's a reasonable position. The issue is that I think many people who buy 'fakes' might think to themselves "I really like that genuine thing but i can't afford it, so I will just get something a bit like it for a price I can tolerate" but instead they outwardly try and justify it differently; that this is the only decision they would ever make regardless of their wealth e.g. "Rolex are a rip off everyone who buys them is a mug!". Can't admit weakness, must exude success!!!

I own 2x Sea Dwellers, a DJ and a White Gold Cellini amongst others, a nice little collection in other words. I have no issues with anyone buying fakes or their reasons for doing so. If people enjoy them then fair play to them.

Would I ever buy one? Maybe? I'm never going to buy a Richard Mille but to experience what one feels like it's a simple way. I also have a serious amount of want for a JC DB Sea Master but just don't know if I could get away with the heft of the thing every day.

A fake would be a good way of trying it out but I've no idea of how you'd find out if it was even remotely similar or indeed if the website would rip off your card details or hack your account in some way.

I'm not imagining the average online fake retailer would be the bastion of legality!

[nbetts]

Pistom said:

nbetts said:

Pistom said:

Using that argument, you would struggle to buy anything.

Not all producers of copy items are involved with organised crime other than stealing IP.

Oh, that is alright then...

It amusing when someone adds their own words to a quote to make a completely different point which is unrelated to what's being discussed.

What are you on about? I just highlighted in Bold your original comment - I did not change anything...

[lostkiwi]

Blown2CV said:

lostkiwi said:

Blown2CV said:

LDN said:

lostkiwi said:

Same watch both times. It was inspected by a UK based dealer and also a dealer in Venice. Both pronounced it 'A really nice piece' but it was definitely a Chinese copy. The AD in Venice was very particular and inspected it under a loupe. I was with the guy who owned it on both occasions.

Yes, there are some fakes that can trick all but the very best.

and they are £50 to buy are they?

Probably not but a lot cheaper than the real thing by at least a factor of 30....
(but who said anything about £50?)

the point is if the real thing is £5000 and the 'high quality' fakes are like £4000 then this doesn't say anything about the lower quality ones. In any case an excellent fake painting is still impressive and might fool lots of experts; but equally it is still fake. The art world hasn't suddenly gone ah fk it some fakes are pretty good so let's just not bother with authenticity and provenance of any painting any more. Fake people would be saying that it doesn't matter if that painting isn't by a real artist because they like it and the visitors to their house wouldn't know the difference.

The fake in question cost US$168. The real one costs over £3k used on Chrono24. Incidentally it has a sapphire caseback so even looking at the movement the ADs couldn't tell.
Now I'm not suggesting the fake is the same quality and has the same water resistance as the genuine or will last as long but the point remains it was indistinguishable to an expert and would probably need to be dismantled to find the truth.

Its pretty obvious to me you're against anything thats not genuine and original (so no fakes and no homages) but thats not how a lot of people think. I think if someone wants a fake or homage and is prepared to accept the shortcomings and knows its a fake thats up to them. The only time I have an issue is when someone tries to pass off a fake as real to a buyer. Thats also seems to be the view of the UK legal system as its not illegal to own a fake, only to sell it for profit.

[anonymous-user]

A sapphire case back?

[lostkiwi]

desolate said:

A sapphire case back?

Well its clear and doesn't scratch. Could be anything but you get the drift - the movement was fully visible.