Your thoughts on fake watches
Discussion
TiggerBits said:
Dempsey1971 said:
It’s always interesting when this subject comes up, which it does quite regularly.
I love watches, I have very many, some reasonably expensive, some cheap and modern, some ebay vintage bargains, some to play with. Do replica watches detract from my enjoyment of my original (if there is a decent copy). No. In fact, I am quiet glad that there are good copies of watches for a number of reasons.
Firstly, it stops watchmakers becoming complacent. They need to innovate in bot design and technology / materials to stay ahead of the replica producers. Without this pressure, we’d be paying for the same old thing year after year.
Secondly, I genuinely believe it drives sales of the real thing UP, not down. The purchaser of a crap knockoff bought on the beach in Thailand was never a customer of the real thing anyway, so doesn’t impact sales. The kind of person who shells out £500 and up on a replica is likely to have done extensive research, read about the watch, and is likely to end up buying 1, 2 or more originals. Read the forums and this happens over and over again. They have 10, 15 replicas, but several (more than the average person by far) originals too. It’s interesting that these forums and the associated dealers are not instantly closed down. It wouldn’t be that hard to do. The occasional half-hearted crackdown, but ultimately back up and running almost immediately. I think the genuine manufacturers secretly nurture this.
Thirdly, replica forums seem to be filled with some of the most knowledgeable ‘watch’ people out there, easily as good as, if not better than on other fora, because many of them have opened the watch up and played with or modded it. Something genuine watch owners just don’t do. I guess I just like that enthusiasm. I respect it.
Yes, you have to ask yourself, if someone can produce a replica for £500 that is so close to the original that cost £20,000, when nobody but the original manufacturer can tell the difference, why does the original cost 40 times as much ?I love watches, I have very many, some reasonably expensive, some cheap and modern, some ebay vintage bargains, some to play with. Do replica watches detract from my enjoyment of my original (if there is a decent copy). No. In fact, I am quiet glad that there are good copies of watches for a number of reasons.
Firstly, it stops watchmakers becoming complacent. They need to innovate in bot design and technology / materials to stay ahead of the replica producers. Without this pressure, we’d be paying for the same old thing year after year.
Secondly, I genuinely believe it drives sales of the real thing UP, not down. The purchaser of a crap knockoff bought on the beach in Thailand was never a customer of the real thing anyway, so doesn’t impact sales. The kind of person who shells out £500 and up on a replica is likely to have done extensive research, read about the watch, and is likely to end up buying 1, 2 or more originals. Read the forums and this happens over and over again. They have 10, 15 replicas, but several (more than the average person by far) originals too. It’s interesting that these forums and the associated dealers are not instantly closed down. It wouldn’t be that hard to do. The occasional half-hearted crackdown, but ultimately back up and running almost immediately. I think the genuine manufacturers secretly nurture this.
Thirdly, replica forums seem to be filled with some of the most knowledgeable ‘watch’ people out there, easily as good as, if not better than on other fora, because many of them have opened the watch up and played with or modded it. Something genuine watch owners just don’t do. I guess I just like that enthusiasm. I respect it.
Blown2CV said:
because it isn't so close to the original.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P_ZTqC2YxxsEdited by ZesPak on Monday 23 April 20:06
nbetts said:
There always has and always will be massive margins in luxury goods. After all they are luxury goods - nobody needs a Rolex/Patek/insert you brand of choice here
However, the price is the price. You either choose to pay it and wear it or you don't and get on with life.
It really is that simple.
As for your point about the west trying to impose their values on areas of the world with slavery and corruption - the west is not trying to do that.
I choose not to encourage environments like that by not buying knock off clobber with questionable quality and materials born on the back of slavery and sweatshops.
This applies to everything that is fake. Invariably behind it there is a foundation based upon criminality and money laundering or worse.
But hey, you don't mind any of that cos Rolex's are too expensive...
Each to their own and all that.
the each to their own argument breaks down, and people start slinging sHowever, the price is the price. You either choose to pay it and wear it or you don't and get on with life.
It really is that simple.
As for your point about the west trying to impose their values on areas of the world with slavery and corruption - the west is not trying to do that.
I choose not to encourage environments like that by not buying knock off clobber with questionable quality and materials born on the back of slavery and sweatshops.
This applies to everything that is fake. Invariably behind it there is a foundation based upon criminality and money laundering or worse.
But hey, you don't mind any of that cos Rolex's are too expensive...
Each to their own and all that.
t at each other for the simple reason that it isn't a nice fair line that's drawn between people who have different preferences.... fake stuff is a charade, it's a pretence, it's a lie. It is an image based on nothing. It's taking the hard work other people do to be able to afford nice things and actively trying to make other people think you've done that too... which in a way people feel is like stealing from them. It's pretending to be successful. It's vain, and distasteful. It's a small version of the same thought process of pretending to be a military veteran to get some kind of respect or sympathy. It's like buying a chrysler and putting bentley badges on it. It's like the pathological liar at work who says he's shagged Kate Moss. It's like the idiot at the petrol station who tries to tell you his diesel Ford Focus has 4 turbos and 500bhp. All this, and then these same people say that you're a mug for paying "full price" i.e. paying the actual price the real thing is. Why is this seen as a fair argument of equals whereas if you saw someone waving their asda smartprice beans aggressively around outside M&S calling people idiots, everyone would think they're a and they'd more than likely get arrested... it's like the same argument as someone saying house burgling is a career and benefits are 'wages'.nikaiyo2 said:
Blown2CV said:
because it isn't so close to the original.
He thinks a Rolex employed watchmaker costs less to employ than a crew member in McDonald’s Geneva earns, tells you all you need to know really.I am really surprised that you know that a Rolex watchmaker makes £15/hour. I'm also incredibly surprised now that someone would go into that profession if that's all you make in one of the most expensive economies to live in.
Let's explore what other personnel's will probably take to complete a new Rolex (and even though the overall design of a lot of them don't change too much, they still change in general).
So let's think at design stage of a "new" watch.
1 - designer (generally someone who sketches out the idea on paper.
2 - AutoCAD tech to make the paper sketches into computer images
3 - AutoCAD engineer to check the drawings
Now let's break down the SCM process
1 - systems team to ensure whatever they use (SAP for example, is up to date and running correctly.
2 - buyer who has to source / find places to buy all the raw material
3 - Expeditors to ensure all raw materials are at the right place at right time
4 - invoice team to process invoices
5 - contracts personnel to ensure that the contracts out for purchasing are adhering to a way to protect the company.
Now let's look at QA
1 - in house Quality assurance / quality engineer who inspects that all pieces are good before being sent out
2 - quality advisor to arrange for inspectors at third part premises (suppliers)
3 - qaulity engineers to review all material certificates and documentation of all products coming from suppliers are of a high enough grade
4 - document controllers to ensure all supplies documentation is stored correctly and to maintain their EDMS
5 - quality manager to ensure that the company adhere to industry standards and to protect the company from audits.
Marketing
1 - market researchers to spot to upcoming trends and to create questionnaires and execute to gather enough industry information
2 - advertising team to come up with new ad campaigns
3 - advertising execs to make decisions on endorsements and how best to place the company
4 - R&D who see what the market wants and helps development
AOB - probably a lot more personnel involved which I have not named.
Now even if every single one of them only made £15 / hour (which I really doubt) I think that's a lot of the pricing already escaladed...
Now the likes of Parnis homages or even fakes won't even have half of the workforce, nevermind the same pay. There is no guarantee of the materials used is of a high standard etc...
Now to go into the nitty gritty of say "materials used". 316 stainless steel isn't exactly as black and white. The quality of the steel also depends on how it's been heat treated, chemistry in the steel, hardness tests etc and spec at which the stainless steel is produced to. Now it may sound as if it's overkill, but depending on all that would depend on the suitability of the material to be used in certain ways. Now the quality of the steel can really make or break how the material will take to certain manufacturing techniques. I don't know too much about the watch industry in terms of this, but certainly there are a lot for industries which won't use Chinese steel purely because of unknown chemistries, dishonest business practices and falsified material certificates. Which then force them to really go to mainly Italian or Japanese forgemasters to get the steel which they need... So even though parnis pays £10 for a chinese steel case, for the same case of known origin and material certs and testing, probably costs a lot more than the £10 parnis are paying.
Now I'm starting to think that quite a few of my watches I have been undercharged for...
Let's explore what other personnel's will probably take to complete a new Rolex (and even though the overall design of a lot of them don't change too much, they still change in general).
So let's think at design stage of a "new" watch.
1 - designer (generally someone who sketches out the idea on paper.
2 - AutoCAD tech to make the paper sketches into computer images
3 - AutoCAD engineer to check the drawings
Now let's break down the SCM process
1 - systems team to ensure whatever they use (SAP for example, is up to date and running correctly.
2 - buyer who has to source / find places to buy all the raw material
3 - Expeditors to ensure all raw materials are at the right place at right time
4 - invoice team to process invoices
5 - contracts personnel to ensure that the contracts out for purchasing are adhering to a way to protect the company.
Now let's look at QA
1 - in house Quality assurance / quality engineer who inspects that all pieces are good before being sent out
2 - quality advisor to arrange for inspectors at third part premises (suppliers)
3 - qaulity engineers to review all material certificates and documentation of all products coming from suppliers are of a high enough grade
4 - document controllers to ensure all supplies documentation is stored correctly and to maintain their EDMS
5 - quality manager to ensure that the company adhere to industry standards and to protect the company from audits.
Marketing
1 - market researchers to spot to upcoming trends and to create questionnaires and execute to gather enough industry information
2 - advertising team to come up with new ad campaigns
3 - advertising execs to make decisions on endorsements and how best to place the company
4 - R&D who see what the market wants and helps development
AOB - probably a lot more personnel involved which I have not named.
Now even if every single one of them only made £15 / hour (which I really doubt) I think that's a lot of the pricing already escaladed...
Now the likes of Parnis homages or even fakes won't even have half of the workforce, nevermind the same pay. There is no guarantee of the materials used is of a high standard etc...
Now to go into the nitty gritty of say "materials used". 316 stainless steel isn't exactly as black and white. The quality of the steel also depends on how it's been heat treated, chemistry in the steel, hardness tests etc and spec at which the stainless steel is produced to. Now it may sound as if it's overkill, but depending on all that would depend on the suitability of the material to be used in certain ways. Now the quality of the steel can really make or break how the material will take to certain manufacturing techniques. I don't know too much about the watch industry in terms of this, but certainly there are a lot for industries which won't use Chinese steel purely because of unknown chemistries, dishonest business practices and falsified material certificates. Which then force them to really go to mainly Italian or Japanese forgemasters to get the steel which they need... So even though parnis pays £10 for a chinese steel case, for the same case of known origin and material certs and testing, probably costs a lot more than the £10 parnis are paying.
Now I'm starting to think that quite a few of my watches I have been undercharged for...
Oh yeah and you seem to always assume that anyone who is against fake watches or homages to the point of damn right copy cat only purchase expensive luxury watches. I think that's an incredibly unfair assumption you make. I think that even though a lot of people on this forum have really nice expensive pieces, I think a lot probably also have cheaper watches but made from more reputable companies too.
For me I think that there's lots of great watchmakers out there who can produce absolutely lovely pieces with their own design with some inspirations at all price points.
Seiko alone probably make great watches stretching all over in terms of price. After a few experiments with the likes of Parnis I have regretted such purchases and wish I had collated the money and bought something like a Seiko instead.
Swiss wise, the likes of Tissot and Hamilton do great ETA watches from £300.
For me I think that there's lots of great watchmakers out there who can produce absolutely lovely pieces with their own design with some inspirations at all price points.
Seiko alone probably make great watches stretching all over in terms of price. After a few experiments with the likes of Parnis I have regretted such purchases and wish I had collated the money and bought something like a Seiko instead.
Swiss wise, the likes of Tissot and Hamilton do great ETA watches from £300.
Underlying this kind of discussion I often see a kind of moral superiority that implies that the genuine buyer is a sort of purist interested in the complexity and workmanship of the real thing while the fake buyer is just a fraud.
I think that the motivation to buy either may be just as stated but I would suggest that many genuine buyers are just as likely to buy the product to impress others as the fake buyers.
It’s similar to threads by “real” drivers who laugh at those who do not drive six-speed manual cars with no electronics , and who are allegedly inferior to real drivers.
I have some reasonably good watches but personally dislike the very recognizable and much copied watches such as Rolexes in particular as I do not want to be defined by a brand. However , if a real or fake watch floats your boat I have no problem and am not going to examine your wrist to find out.
I think that the motivation to buy either may be just as stated but I would suggest that many genuine buyers are just as likely to buy the product to impress others as the fake buyers.
It’s similar to threads by “real” drivers who laugh at those who do not drive six-speed manual cars with no electronics , and who are allegedly inferior to real drivers.
I have some reasonably good watches but personally dislike the very recognizable and much copied watches such as Rolexes in particular as I do not want to be defined by a brand. However , if a real or fake watch floats your boat I have no problem and am not going to examine your wrist to find out.
RDMcG said:
Underlying this kind of discussion I often see a kind of moral superiority that implies that the genuine buyer is a sort of purist interested in the complexity and workmanship of the real thing while the fake buyer is just a fraud.
I think that the motivation to buy either may be just as stated but I would suggest that many genuine buyers are just as likely to buy the product to impress others as the fake buyers.
It’s similar to threads by “real” drivers who laugh at those who do not drive six-speed manual cars with no electronics , and who are allegedly inferior to real drivers.
I have some reasonably good watches but personally dislike the very recognizable and much copied watches such as Rolexes in particular as I do not want to be defined by a brand. However , if a real or fake watch floats your boat I have no problem and am not going to examine your wrist to find out.
I think a lot of the main issue of threads like this and others which the OP have started and contributed to comes down to the fact that his relentless insinuation that anyone who pays for a Rolex etc are getting mugged off as parnis or fakes are "built just as well and that anyone paying more than that are getting mugged"I think that the motivation to buy either may be just as stated but I would suggest that many genuine buyers are just as likely to buy the product to impress others as the fake buyers.
It’s similar to threads by “real” drivers who laugh at those who do not drive six-speed manual cars with no electronics , and who are allegedly inferior to real drivers.
I have some reasonably good watches but personally dislike the very recognizable and much copied watches such as Rolexes in particular as I do not want to be defined by a brand. However , if a real or fake watch floats your boat I have no problem and am not going to examine your wrist to find out.
I'm not going to lie, I've had a couple of homage watches, none of which I wear anymore. What I really wished I'd done with that money is buy decent Seiko's or Hamilton's. What I've learned with this mistake is that there's decent watches from reputable companies at all price points.
Blown2CV said:
TiggerBits said:
Dempsey1971 said:
It’s always interesting when this subject comes up, which it does quite regularly.
I love watches, I have very many, some reasonably expensive, some cheap and modern, some ebay vintage bargains, some to play with. Do replica watches detract from my enjoyment of my original (if there is a decent copy). No. In fact, I am quiet glad that there are good copies of watches for a number of reasons.
Firstly, it stops watchmakers becoming complacent. They need to innovate in bot design and technology / materials to stay ahead of the replica producers. Without this pressure, we’d be paying for the same old thing year after year.
Secondly, I genuinely believe it drives sales of the real thing UP, not down. The purchaser of a crap knockoff bought on the beach in Thailand was never a customer of the real thing anyway, so doesn’t impact sales. The kind of person who shells out £500 and up on a replica is likely to have done extensive research, read about the watch, and is likely to end up buying 1, 2 or more originals. Read the forums and this happens over and over again. They have 10, 15 replicas, but several (more than the average person by far) originals too. It’s interesting that these forums and the associated dealers are not instantly closed down. It wouldn’t be that hard to do. The occasional half-hearted crackdown, but ultimately back up and running almost immediately. I think the genuine manufacturers secretly nurture this.
Thirdly, replica forums seem to be filled with some of the most knowledgeable ‘watch’ people out there, easily as good as, if not better than on other fora, because many of them have opened the watch up and played with or modded it. Something genuine watch owners just don’t do. I guess I just like that enthusiasm. I respect it.
Yes, you have to ask yourself, if someone can produce a replica for £500 that is so close to the original that cost £20,000, when nobody but the original manufacturer can tell the difference, why does the original cost 40 times as much ?I love watches, I have very many, some reasonably expensive, some cheap and modern, some ebay vintage bargains, some to play with. Do replica watches detract from my enjoyment of my original (if there is a decent copy). No. In fact, I am quiet glad that there are good copies of watches for a number of reasons.
Firstly, it stops watchmakers becoming complacent. They need to innovate in bot design and technology / materials to stay ahead of the replica producers. Without this pressure, we’d be paying for the same old thing year after year.
Secondly, I genuinely believe it drives sales of the real thing UP, not down. The purchaser of a crap knockoff bought on the beach in Thailand was never a customer of the real thing anyway, so doesn’t impact sales. The kind of person who shells out £500 and up on a replica is likely to have done extensive research, read about the watch, and is likely to end up buying 1, 2 or more originals. Read the forums and this happens over and over again. They have 10, 15 replicas, but several (more than the average person by far) originals too. It’s interesting that these forums and the associated dealers are not instantly closed down. It wouldn’t be that hard to do. The occasional half-hearted crackdown, but ultimately back up and running almost immediately. I think the genuine manufacturers secretly nurture this.
Thirdly, replica forums seem to be filled with some of the most knowledgeable ‘watch’ people out there, easily as good as, if not better than on other fora, because many of them have opened the watch up and played with or modded it. Something genuine watch owners just don’t do. I guess I just like that enthusiasm. I respect it.
The point about inflated purchase price is also valid - Rolex deliberately manipulate the market to ensure the price is kept sky high - in other words the purchase price bears no alignment to the cost of manufacture and in that respect are ripping off the consumer. Rolex are so adept at it that folks will believe the hype and clamour to pay the extra with 2 year waiting lists and all that other bull. In other words they milk the consumer for every cent (one of the reasons I'm not a Rolex fan). To some extent Rolex are a victim of their own success in this by being the most copied manufacturer for fakes.
I get the whole aspirational thing of luxury brands but I also get that folks will want something of the same style (because they like the look of it) which they can get in a homage and have no problem with that.I don't really have an issue with fakes either because at the end of the day the person buying the fake knows its not the real McCoy and if they are happy with that then fine. It only becomes an issue when the fake is sold on as real and someone else is ripped off. If folks are so shallow to care what someone else wears that's their problem.
nbetts said:
Pistom said:
Using that argument, you would struggle to buy anything.
Not all producers of copy items are involved with organised crime other than stealing IP.
Oh, that is alright then...Not all producers of copy items are involved with organised crime other than stealing IP.
Next someone will be starting a thread asking for thoughts on fake £20 notes. After all, some of the fakes are very close to the original....
InductionRoar said:
lostkiwi said:
Some of the fakes are. I know of two ADs (non-Rolex) that were fooled by fakes they inspected.
This is concerning. Care to elucidate?lostkiwi said:
Same watch both times. It was inspected by a UK based dealer and also a dealer in Venice. Both pronounced it 'A really nice piece' but it was definitely a Chinese copy. The AD in Venice was very particular and inspected it under a loupe. I was with the guy who owned it on both occasions.
Yes, there are some fakes that can trick all but the very best. I remember 4/5 years back a friend was stopping in Marbllea with his wife and bought a fake Rolex from a lucky luky man for about €40 came out of Linikers on the second line about 4am and jumped on,whatch taken along with his wallet €300/400 and a very sore head....! Fortunately she was ok....!
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