Your thoughts on fake watches
Discussion
nikaiyo2 said:
He thinks a Rolex employed watchmaker costs less to employ than a crew member in McDonald’s Geneva earns, tells you all you need to know really.
You live in a different world to most of us. A crew member in Mc Donalds earns national minimum wage, which is £7.83 an hour. I quoted £15, which is almost twice that.bigandclever said:
If you believe glassdoor (and why wouldn’t you?) a Rolex horloger earns roughly Euro 90k.
I have never heard so much rubbish in my life. As it happens a close friend of mine's daughter recently stopped working for Rolex after 10 years, and that is where I got the £15 an hour from. TiggerBits said:
nikaiyo2 said:
He thinks a Rolex employed watchmaker costs less to employ than a crew member in McDonald’s Geneva earns, tells you all you need to know really.
You live in a different world to most of us. A crew member in Mc Donalds earns national minimum wage, which is £7.83 an hour. I quoted £15, which is almost twice that.Jayho said:
Now the likes of Parnis homages or even fakes won't even have half of the workforce, never mind the same pay. There is no guarantee of the materials used is of a high standard etc...
Your absolutely right, and that's why they cost approximately 1% of a Rolex. The fact is that Parnis watches represent absolutely fantastic value for money, whilst Rolex are horribly over priced. In the UK it is possible to buy a brand new car for less than the price of a Rolex, so please don't attempt to tell me that luxury watches are worth the money, because they simply aren't. Now, I am not questioning the quality of a Rolex (for example), and am perfectly aware they are considerably better than a Seiko, or Citizen, I am questioning the unrealistic prices. I own an Omega myself, albeit an old relatively cheap one, and realise how well made it is made. Anyway, back to the topic in question. I fully understand any ones dislike of fake watches, and appreciate the reasons why people wouldn't want to buy one. For me, I would just rather invest in a decent homage which actually costs a fair bit less than a replica.
EddieSteadyGo said:
Not having a dig at you at TiggerBits, but have you been recently to Switzerland? £15 / hr was the proposed *minimum* wage there a few years ago. Whilst that proposal didn't become law, salaries (and cost of living) is very expensive.
Perhaps, but somebody quoted 90k a year, BONKERSTiggerBits said:
EddieSteadyGo said:
Not having a dig at you at TiggerBits, but have you been recently to Switzerland? £15 / hr was the proposed *minimum* wage there a few years ago. Whilst that proposal didn't become law, salaries (and cost of living) is very expensive.
Perhaps, but somebody quoted 90k a year, BONKERSnbetts said:
Pistom said:
Using that argument, you would struggle to buy anything.
Not all producers of copy items are involved with organised crime other than stealing IP.
Oh, that is alright then...Not all producers of copy items are involved with organised crime other than stealing IP.
It amusing when someone adds their own words to a quote to make a completely different point which is unrelated to what's being discussed. £15/hour on a 37.5 hour week is an annual wage of £27000. That is before tax etc in one of the most expensive economies in the world... About a third of the average wage there. For a trained and dying trade it seems very low in such an economy. And that is not even taking into account all the other employees I mentioned before to make manufacturing work.
And no wonder your friends daughter no longer work for them as once you factor in rent, transport to and from work you won't even have money to buy groceries.
To be honest, that even in my local economy is probably not going to be a comfortable life. Rent alone would be at minimum 40% of your take home wage.
And no wonder your friends daughter no longer work for them as once you factor in rent, transport to and from work you won't even have money to buy groceries.
To be honest, that even in my local economy is probably not going to be a comfortable life. Rent alone would be at minimum 40% of your take home wage.
TiggerBits said:
bigandclever said:
If you believe glassdoor (and why wouldn’t you?) a Rolex horloger earns roughly Euro 90k.
I have never heard so much rubbish in my life. As it happens a close friend of mine's daughter recently stopped working for Rolex after 10 years, and that is where I got the £15 an hour from. 
ks.TiggerBits said:
Your absolutely right, and that's why they cost approximately 1% of a Rolex. The fact is that Parnis watches represent absolutely fantastic value for money, whilst Rolex are horribly over priced. In the UK it is possible to buy a brand new car for less than the price of a Rolex, so please don't attempt to tell me that luxury watches are worth the money, because they simply aren't
What brand new car are you talking of which costs less than a Rolex? Some of the most popular Rolexes are their submariners and GMT. Each of which can be picked up for £6-8k for a s/s version. Although I don't think that a watch should ever be bought just to hold is value, but buying a brand new car your depreciation alone would cost you more than a Rolex after 3 years. By your logic I can confidently say that from now on I'm never going to get married as it would be cheaper for me to hire a hooker whenever mood feels like as it proposes a better value for money.
Jayho said:
TiggerBits said:
Your absolutely right, and that's why they cost approximately 1% of a Rolex. The fact is that Parnis watches represent absolutely fantastic value for money, whilst Rolex are horribly over priced. In the UK it is possible to buy a brand new car for less than the price of a Rolex, so please don't attempt to tell me that luxury watches are worth the money, because they simply aren't
What brand new car are you talking of which costs less than a Rolex? Some of the most popular Rolexes are their submariners and GMT. Each of which can be picked up for £6-8k for a s/s version. Although I don't think that a watch should ever be bought just to hold is value, but buying a brand new car your depreciation alone would cost you more than a Rolex after 3 years. By your logic I can confidently say that from now on I'm never going to get married as it would be cheaper for me to hire a hooker whenever mood feels like as it proposes a better value for money.
TiggerBits said:
I have never heard so much rubbish in my life. As it happens a close friend of mine's daughter recently stopped working for Rolex after 10 years, and that is where I got the £15 an hour from.
Did she work in the staff cafeteria? My friend's daughter works at Rolex in Geneva and is on 110k/year.
bigandclever said:
TiggerBits said:
bigandclever said:
If you believe glassdoor (and why wouldn’t you?) a Rolex horloger earns roughly Euro 90k.
I have never heard so much rubbish in my life. As it happens a close friend of mine's daughter recently stopped working for Rolex after 10 years, and that is where I got the £15 an hour from. ks.Have a look at this link....the median salary of a registered nurse for example is over 58,000 CHF which gives you some idea of where employment costs are currently in Switzerland.
https://www.payscale.com/research/CH/Location=Gene...
So I think the appropriate response on this point TiggerBits is something like, "that's interesting. Maybe I might have been mistaken on that..."
TiggerBits said:
nbetts said:
I can think of loads of reasons...
Employees of the legitmate watch manufacturer has to pay for things like
Staff Salaries
Staff training
Investment in plant and materials
R&D
Marketing
Business Costs
The fake watch brands just need to copy what sells
and use slave labour run by gangs to produce knock off st
Of course I am no naïve enough to say that some of the Very expensive watches do not have a factor of snake oil woven into the fabric of the pricing.
I mean a Patek Phillips costing several hundred thousand £££'s - or a Mont Blanc costing similar... these manufacturers charge what they think the market will sustain.
Once you have a sublime reputation and there is consumer demand you can charge what the market will sustain.
When I think of fake watches despite how good they might look I just think criminal gangs, drugs, slave labour and thugs behind the little £30 trinket on a tourists wrist.
Sorry.
OK, I get your point, but let me break down the costs. The man hours to produce a Rolex submariner (for example) is almost certainly no more than 5. At most these people would be earning no more than about £15 per hour. The materials bought in at bulk, even for a top quality watch would be no more than £200. Of course, there are other overheads such as admin, packaging and marketing etc. These overheads would probably double the aforementioned costs, so a total production cost of about £500 is a reasonable guess. The manufacturer will then double their production cost to the retailer, who will in turn double their purchase price for the end buyer. In short, a stainless Rolex Submariner should cost the end user £2000 at most. Unfortunately it actually costs at least 4 times that. I am a retired retailer with buying knowledge, so please trust me. Employees of the legitmate watch manufacturer has to pay for things like
Staff Salaries
Staff training
Investment in plant and materials
R&D
Marketing
Business Costs
The fake watch brands just need to copy what sells
and use slave labour run by gangs to produce knock off s
tOf course I am no naïve enough to say that some of the Very expensive watches do not have a factor of snake oil woven into the fabric of the pricing.
I mean a Patek Phillips costing several hundred thousand £££'s - or a Mont Blanc costing similar... these manufacturers charge what they think the market will sustain.
Once you have a sublime reputation and there is consumer demand you can charge what the market will sustain.
When I think of fake watches despite how good they might look I just think criminal gangs, drugs, slave labour and thugs behind the little £30 trinket on a tourists wrist.
Sorry.
As far as the cheap labour and criminal gang argument goes, I don't really care. We in the west should stop attempting to enforce our working standards and morality onto other countries. If it looks like a Rolex, is of similar quality to a Rolex, and works like a Rolex, as far as I am concerned, it's ALMOST a Rolex. Like I said, I choose not to wear fake watches, but have no issue with those who do, as long as they know what they are buying
There is also no such thing as an ALMOST Rolex. Which you well know. But it is the sort of thing someone who buys homage watches would say to try and justify their purchase.
lostkiwi said:
Some of the fakes are. I know of two ADs (non-Rolex) that were fooled by fakes they inspected.
The point about inflated purchase price is also valid - Rolex deliberately manipulate the market to ensure the price is kept sky high - in other words the purchase price bears no alignment to the cost of manufacture and in that respect are ripping off the consumer. Rolex are so adept at it that folks will believe the hype and clamour to pay the extra with 2 year waiting lists and all that other bull. In other words they milk the consumer for every cent (one of the reasons I'm not a Rolex fan). To some extent Rolex are a victim of their own success in this by being the most copied manufacturer for fakes.
I get the whole aspirational thing of luxury brands but I also get that folks will want something of the same style (because they like the look of it) which they can get in a homage and have no problem with that.I don't really have an issue with fakes either because at the end of the day the person buying the fake knows its not the real McCoy and if they are happy with that then fine. It only becomes an issue when the fake is sold on as real and someone else is ripped off. If folks are so shallow to care what someone else wears that's their problem.
My point exactly, and well saidThe point about inflated purchase price is also valid - Rolex deliberately manipulate the market to ensure the price is kept sky high - in other words the purchase price bears no alignment to the cost of manufacture and in that respect are ripping off the consumer. Rolex are so adept at it that folks will believe the hype and clamour to pay the extra with 2 year waiting lists and all that other bull. In other words they milk the consumer for every cent (one of the reasons I'm not a Rolex fan). To some extent Rolex are a victim of their own success in this by being the most copied manufacturer for fakes.
I get the whole aspirational thing of luxury brands but I also get that folks will want something of the same style (because they like the look of it) which they can get in a homage and have no problem with that.I don't really have an issue with fakes either because at the end of the day the person buying the fake knows its not the real McCoy and if they are happy with that then fine. It only becomes an issue when the fake is sold on as real and someone else is ripped off. If folks are so shallow to care what someone else wears that's their problem.
Jayho said:
What brand new car are you talking of which costs less than a Rolex? Some of the most popular Rolexes are their submariners and GMT. Each of which can be picked up for £6-8k for a s/s version. Although I don't think that a watch should ever be bought just to hold is value, but buying a brand new car your depreciation alone would cost you more than a Rolex after 3 years.
By your logic I can confidently say that from now on I'm never going to get married as it would be cheaper for me to hire a hooker whenever mood feels like as it proposes a better value for money.
Vauxhall Viva and a few Sandero's. Perhaps not the best cars on the market, but offered either and I would take the car over an £8k Rolex any dayBy your logic I can confidently say that from now on I'm never going to get married as it would be cheaper for me to hire a hooker whenever mood feels like as it proposes a better value for money.
EddieSteadyGo said:
I'm with bigandclever on this one.
Have a look at this link....the median salary of a registered nurse for example is over 58,000 CHF which gives you some idea of where employment costs are currently in Switzerland.
https://www.payscale.com/research/CH/Location=Gene...
So I think the appropriate response on this point TiggerBits is something like, "that's interesting. Maybe I might have been mistaken on that..."
So you presume that all the staff in the Rolex factories are qualified horologists. Of course they are not. The vast majority of them will be trained monkeys who carry our menial tasks. In a factory of 100 workers I would be surprised if there are any more than a couple of actual horologists. If you ACTUALLY believe that an £8k Rolex justifies the cost, not to mention a £20k+ PP, then carry on believing it. It's your money, you spend it on what you like Have a look at this link....the median salary of a registered nurse for example is over 58,000 CHF which gives you some idea of where employment costs are currently in Switzerland.
https://www.payscale.com/research/CH/Location=Gene...
So I think the appropriate response on this point TiggerBits is something like, "that's interesting. Maybe I might have been mistaken on that..."
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