Discussion
BOR said:
Ninjin said:
My point is, a 1:1 fake is only to decieve. Lots of reasons to do it but what you are wearing is not the 'real' thing and thus a deception.
What if no one else ever sees it?If you love the style and design of a Rol... sorry, bad example, the style and design of a Blancpain and just want a 3D example of the design to look at occasionally ?
If you never wear it outside your home, no one else will ever be impressed by it.
At no point have I referred to purchasing the fake, only the wearing of it to decieve.
Human psychology dictates that we hanker for intellectual property (i.e. a brand). That's why the big brands spend millions on marketing, brand promotion, product placement.
Cartier/Rolex at polo, Rolex at Wimbledon, golf etc. The better the marketing, the better the sales.
Marketing is no voodoo magic, it's targeted, however discreetly or in your face. They know their target market and thus specifically aim the brand at that market.
You don't see Chanel at Wimbledon sponsoring the scoreboard for example, this would totally be off target for the Chanel brand.
So sublimely, you brain wants the brand. If you can't attain the real deal then you either do without or settle for a fake, or somewhere in between.
Without the huge amounts spent on marketing and promotion you would definitely not be wanting it.
A very recent example is Pandora. A company that nearly went bust but was injected with cash and managed to turn itself around. New management team with a marketing budget managed to turn around the brand so that nearly every working class woman wanted it for Xmas. Pandora is tat (cheap) jewellery, no raw material value but so successful due to marketing. So there is no value in the jewellery itself yet their marketing made it seem premium and the result was loads of fakes to cater for the demand from people who wanted it but couldn't afford the real deal.
As they say, it's worse not to be copied than to be copied. In the the world of branding, having your product faked, is the ultimate proof of success.
Interesting topic.
I have a couple of watches that I bought a few years ago because I really liked how they looked - Planet Ocean and a Panerai. They're probably worth less than I paid but never an unfavourable comment received.
I have loved the Rolex 116610LV 'Hulk' ever since an old boss of mine had one, when I didn't know what it was, but have always seen it as horrendously expensive, I had the opportunity to buy one not that long ago and did on the basis that if I needed to I could always sell it and not lose money, I could probably quite easily sell it for £1-2k more than I paid. I didn't buy it as a show of wealth, I don't have £10k to spend on something as a luxury.
I bought it as I love it, people just assume it's a fake, annoys me a little bit as it actually makes people think you're an idiot on that basis. Especially as my watch is worth a similar amount to the car I'm getting out of, on that basis it must be fake... but one's appreciating and one's depreciating.
Not sure what my point was now, but to me, you only spend £1k on a high quality fake with some genuine parts for one reason, to make people think you're doing better than you are?
I have a couple of watches that I bought a few years ago because I really liked how they looked - Planet Ocean and a Panerai. They're probably worth less than I paid but never an unfavourable comment received.
I have loved the Rolex 116610LV 'Hulk' ever since an old boss of mine had one, when I didn't know what it was, but have always seen it as horrendously expensive, I had the opportunity to buy one not that long ago and did on the basis that if I needed to I could always sell it and not lose money, I could probably quite easily sell it for £1-2k more than I paid. I didn't buy it as a show of wealth, I don't have £10k to spend on something as a luxury.
I bought it as I love it, people just assume it's a fake, annoys me a little bit as it actually makes people think you're an idiot on that basis. Especially as my watch is worth a similar amount to the car I'm getting out of, on that basis it must be fake... but one's appreciating and one's depreciating.
Not sure what my point was now, but to me, you only spend £1k on a high quality fake with some genuine parts for one reason, to make people think you're doing better than you are?
AB said:
Interesting topic.
Not sure what my point was now, but to me, you only spend £1k on a high quality fake with some genuine parts for one reason, to make people think you're doing better than you are?
Agreed that people buying fakes are doing so to impress others. But when you ask people who own the genuine article why THEY’VE bought a Rolex (or whatever) it’s because of the design, the craftsmanship, the engineering.....never to impress other people by showing how wealthy they are Not sure what my point was now, but to me, you only spend £1k on a high quality fake with some genuine parts for one reason, to make people think you're doing better than you are?
Countdown said:
Agreed that people buying fakes are doing so to impress others. But when you ask people who own the genuine article why THEY’VE bought a Rolex (or whatever) it’s because of the design, the craftsmanship, the engineering.....never to impress other people by showing how wealthy they are
Well put but anyone who is spending money whether on a fake or genuine with the intention of impressing others is chasing a shallow dream. These watches are nice to own, nice to wear and almost nobody notices. Wearing a fake must be a very depressing experience if you're trying to impress others.
What a shame that we live in a world where many judge on cost rather than value, especially when in reality fakes are such poor value.
One of the reasons I enjoy Jay Leno's garage is because he's enthusiastic about cars regardless of value.
Dolf Stoppard said:
So what if something looks similar from 12" away? It's a fake. Caring about whether it fools someone suggests not being honest about whether it's real. Anyone who does that is laughable.
If you like the Pelagos and can afford one, I'd be surprised if you didn't get more pleasure from an original. A watch from the pound shop with 'Pelagis' written on the dial is as much a Tudor as yours!
And Hamilton, Oris, CW etc make some good models. But they're not as well made as say Tudor, which are not as well made as Rolex. The people who argue against things like this tend to own the cheaper models. Like people who say their Leon is as well built as a Golf, or people with a Golf who say it's as well built as an A3. Nothing wrong with cheaper things, just be honest.
I bought a Sub for £3.5k, have worn it on and off, and I could probably sell it today for £6.5k. Nothing odd about that.
I'm not sure your analogies hold up - sorry. pelagos clasp for instance is much better than the Roles sub equivalent and very nicely made, most reviews reckon the in house Tudor movement is better than the Rolex.If you like the Pelagos and can afford one, I'd be surprised if you didn't get more pleasure from an original. A watch from the pound shop with 'Pelagis' written on the dial is as much a Tudor as yours!
And Hamilton, Oris, CW etc make some good models. But they're not as well made as say Tudor, which are not as well made as Rolex. The people who argue against things like this tend to own the cheaper models. Like people who say their Leon is as well built as a Golf, or people with a Golf who say it's as well built as an A3. Nothing wrong with cheaper things, just be honest.
I bought a Sub for £3.5k, have worn it on and off, and I could probably sell it today for £6.5k. Nothing odd about that.
The difference between a Golf and a Leon and an Octavia is 99% styling, the rest is the same.
But I don't get fake watches, I understand a homage after all there are 1000's of Sub homages even from respected brands and IIRC the sub is a homage itself bearing a similarity to the earlier Blanc Pain 50 fathoms.
If you have a fake, you know its a fake, anyone who cares will eventually find out its a fake and other people just wont care. So the only person being fooled is the owner. I admit, I have a fake Tag bought 25 years ago in HongKong for £2. It sill works but I have never worn it, I get precisely nothing from wearing it.
Very interesting discussion this.
I'm firmly in the camp of not buying fakes, replicas, counterfeits - whatever you want to call them.
BUT it does get interesting if the fake / copy is to all intents and purposes identical in both FORM and FUNCTION.
What if the copy looks identical, really does work in the same way (copy of movement) and works just as well as the original (same level of accuracy, waterproofing etc) but costs dramatically less?
You could argue (I wouldn't but someone could) that the owner of the fake gets the better deal - if they bought it knowingly and for the dramatically lower price.
I have never handled a high end fake watch so would not know if they feel the same in the hand and on the wrist, but if they really were effectively identical you would be buying a very beautiful and very capable watch for nothing like the cost of the original.
Now if Rolex etc have a HUGE markup (no idea if they do but I assume it is pretty massive) and there is minimal markup on the fake, how close are the two watches in terms of cost of goods, build quality and materials quality?
Put another way, how cheaply could Rolex make their watches if they farmed out production to Vietnam, had zero marketing costs, stripped out 15 layers of overpaid management and fully automated more of their production processes. If they did this and then decided not to hit you with a huge margin what does the watch cost? Could it be a £1000 watch? Well according to this thread you can buy an extremely good £1000 fake. Are they the same? Don't know but it is interesting.
As already said I'd never buy the fake because I don't want to be a fake myself BUT I'd be interested to look at a watch that had the same or better quality, beauty, reliability etc as the Rolex but cost only £1k AND was clearly NOT a copy.
Having said all of the above............... if you offered me a truly perfect copy of this at a fraction of the genuine price I'd still say "no thanks" but I might have to count to 10 very slowly first!
I'm firmly in the camp of not buying fakes, replicas, counterfeits - whatever you want to call them.
BUT it does get interesting if the fake / copy is to all intents and purposes identical in both FORM and FUNCTION.
What if the copy looks identical, really does work in the same way (copy of movement) and works just as well as the original (same level of accuracy, waterproofing etc) but costs dramatically less?
You could argue (I wouldn't but someone could) that the owner of the fake gets the better deal - if they bought it knowingly and for the dramatically lower price.
I have never handled a high end fake watch so would not know if they feel the same in the hand and on the wrist, but if they really were effectively identical you would be buying a very beautiful and very capable watch for nothing like the cost of the original.
Now if Rolex etc have a HUGE markup (no idea if they do but I assume it is pretty massive) and there is minimal markup on the fake, how close are the two watches in terms of cost of goods, build quality and materials quality?
Put another way, how cheaply could Rolex make their watches if they farmed out production to Vietnam, had zero marketing costs, stripped out 15 layers of overpaid management and fully automated more of their production processes. If they did this and then decided not to hit you with a huge margin what does the watch cost? Could it be a £1000 watch? Well according to this thread you can buy an extremely good £1000 fake. Are they the same? Don't know but it is interesting.
As already said I'd never buy the fake because I don't want to be a fake myself BUT I'd be interested to look at a watch that had the same or better quality, beauty, reliability etc as the Rolex but cost only £1k AND was clearly NOT a copy.
Having said all of the above............... if you offered me a truly perfect copy of this at a fraction of the genuine price I'd still say "no thanks" but I might have to count to 10 very slowly first!
You're right. The mark up is an interesting aspect of Rolex desirability.
They are Veblen goods. They are desirable precisely because they are expensive. For some people, they would be less desirable, if the price was a lot less than it currently is.
Thought experiment:
How many Rolex buyers would rather pay 10.000€ for a Rolex with "Rolex" spaffed all over the rehaut, than pay 5000€ for an identical watch, made by Rolex, but with absolutely NO Rolex markings?
They are Veblen goods. They are desirable precisely because they are expensive. For some people, they would be less desirable, if the price was a lot less than it currently is.
Thought experiment:
How many Rolex buyers would rather pay 10.000€ for a Rolex with "Rolex" spaffed all over the rehaut, than pay 5000€ for an identical watch, made by Rolex, but with absolutely NO Rolex markings?
BOR said:
You're right. The mark up is an interesting aspect of Rolex desirability.
They are Veblen goods. They are desirable precisely because they are expensive. For some people, they would be less desirable, if the price was a lot less than it currently is.
Thought experiment:
How many Rolex buyers would rather pay 10.000€ for a Rolex with "Rolex" spaffed all over the rehaut, than pay 5000€ for an identical watch, made by Rolex, but with absolutely NO Rolex markings?
People used to pay to de-badge their performance Audi'sThey are Veblen goods. They are desirable precisely because they are expensive. For some people, they would be less desirable, if the price was a lot less than it currently is.
Thought experiment:
How many Rolex buyers would rather pay 10.000€ for a Rolex with "Rolex" spaffed all over the rehaut, than pay 5000€ for an identical watch, made by Rolex, but with absolutely NO Rolex markings?
BOR said:
You're right. The mark up is an interesting aspect of Rolex desirability.
They are Veblen goods. They are desirable precisely because they are expensive. For some people, they would be less desirable, if the price was a lot less than it currently is.
Thought experiment:
How many Rolex buyers would rather pay 10.000€ for a Rolex with "Rolex" spaffed all over the rehaut, than pay 5000€ for an identical watch, made by Rolex, but with absolutely NO Rolex markings?
I'd go for the second option, I'd just quietly appreciate it and enjoy it than scream 'look at my wad' or let people presume it's a fake. They are Veblen goods. They are desirable precisely because they are expensive. For some people, they would be less desirable, if the price was a lot less than it currently is.
Thought experiment:
How many Rolex buyers would rather pay 10.000€ for a Rolex with "Rolex" spaffed all over the rehaut, than pay 5000€ for an identical watch, made by Rolex, but with absolutely NO Rolex markings?
Greendubber said:
BOR said:
You're right. The mark up is an interesting aspect of Rolex desirability.
They are Veblen goods. They are desirable precisely because they are expensive. For some people, they would be less desirable, if the price was a lot less than it currently is.
Thought experiment:
How many Rolex buyers would rather pay 10.000€ for a Rolex with "Rolex" spaffed all over the rehaut, than pay 5000€ for an identical watch, made by Rolex, but with absolutely NO Rolex markings?
I'd go for the second option, I'd just quietly appreciate it and enjoy it than scream 'look at my wad' or let people presume it's a fake. They are Veblen goods. They are desirable precisely because they are expensive. For some people, they would be less desirable, if the price was a lot less than it currently is.
Thought experiment:
How many Rolex buyers would rather pay 10.000€ for a Rolex with "Rolex" spaffed all over the rehaut, than pay 5000€ for an identical watch, made by Rolex, but with absolutely NO Rolex markings?
I'd have the £1k de-badged Omega from my post in the blink of an eye.
BOR said:
You're right. The mark up is an interesting aspect of Rolex desirability.
They are Veblen goods. They are desirable precisely because they are expensive. For some people, they would be less desirable, if the price was a lot less than it currently is.
Thought experiment:
How many Rolex buyers would rather pay 10.000€ for a Rolex with "Rolex" spaffed all over the rehaut, than pay 5000€ for an identical watch, made by Rolex, but with absolutely NO Rolex markings?
Rolex have already tapped this market with Tudor.They are Veblen goods. They are desirable precisely because they are expensive. For some people, they would be less desirable, if the price was a lot less than it currently is.
Thought experiment:
How many Rolex buyers would rather pay 10.000€ for a Rolex with "Rolex" spaffed all over the rehaut, than pay 5000€ for an identical watch, made by Rolex, but with absolutely NO Rolex markings?
For many years I lusted after a Rolex 16610 LV (Kermit sub) but never had the spare money to buy one. Eventually I bought a replica, just to see how I got on with it. It was an excellent copy and asides from the weight and the quality of the bracelet you would be hard pushed to tell the difference
After wearing it for a bit I decided it wasn't for me and ended up buying a genuine Tudor from an AD instead. Now you could argue that had I done that with a genuine, the resale value would still be good - but it would be a lot of money to have tied up while waiting for a sale. So really, I'm glad I got it out of my system and didn't end up buying the genuine one in the first place.
I think someone has already alluded to kit cars in this thread, I'm interested to know if you all look down on Westfield owners as they are just replicas of Lotus/Caterham 7's and likewise all of the Shelby Cobra replicas you see about on a summer Sunday morning
After wearing it for a bit I decided it wasn't for me and ended up buying a genuine Tudor from an AD instead. Now you could argue that had I done that with a genuine, the resale value would still be good - but it would be a lot of money to have tied up while waiting for a sale. So really, I'm glad I got it out of my system and didn't end up buying the genuine one in the first place.
I think someone has already alluded to kit cars in this thread, I'm interested to know if you all look down on Westfield owners as they are just replicas of Lotus/Caterham 7's and likewise all of the Shelby Cobra replicas you see about on a summer Sunday morning
blueg33 said:
Dolf Stoppard said:
So what if something looks similar from 12" away? It's a fake. Caring about whether it fools someone suggests not being honest about whether it's real. Anyone who does that is laughable.
If you like the Pelagos and can afford one, I'd be surprised if you didn't get more pleasure from an original. A watch from the pound shop with 'Pelagis' written on the dial is as much a Tudor as yours!
And Hamilton, Oris, CW etc make some good models. But they're not as well made as say Tudor, which are not as well made as Rolex. The people who argue against things like this tend to own the cheaper models. Like people who say their Leon is as well built as a Golf, or people with a Golf who say it's as well built as an A3. Nothing wrong with cheaper things, just be honest.
I bought a Sub for £3.5k, have worn it on and off, and I could probably sell it today for £6.5k. Nothing odd about that.
I'm not sure your analogies hold up - sorry. pelagos clasp for instance is much better than the Roles sub equivalent and very nicely made, most reviews reckon the in house Tudor movement is better than the Rolex.If you like the Pelagos and can afford one, I'd be surprised if you didn't get more pleasure from an original. A watch from the pound shop with 'Pelagis' written on the dial is as much a Tudor as yours!
And Hamilton, Oris, CW etc make some good models. But they're not as well made as say Tudor, which are not as well made as Rolex. The people who argue against things like this tend to own the cheaper models. Like people who say their Leon is as well built as a Golf, or people with a Golf who say it's as well built as an A3. Nothing wrong with cheaper things, just be honest.
I bought a Sub for £3.5k, have worn it on and off, and I could probably sell it today for £6.5k. Nothing odd about that.
The difference between a Golf and a Leon and an Octavia is 99% styling, the rest is the same.
But I don't get fake watches, I understand a homage after all there are 1000's of Sub homages even from respected brands and IIRC the sub is a homage itself bearing a similarity to the earlier Blanc Pain 50 fathoms.
If you have a fake, you know its a fake, anyone who cares will eventually find out its a fake and other people just wont care. So the only person being fooled is the owner. I admit, I have a fake Tag bought 25 years ago in HongKong for £2. It sill works but I have never worn it, I get precisely nothing from wearing it.
I've also no idea what exact percentage of parts are shared by VAG cars. But having sat in Octavias, Leons and owned two Mark 7 GTis, there certainly feels more than one percent difference. But, regardless of that, I think the analogy does hold up - people with Octavias will often argue they're as good as the VAG group's more expensive alternatives. People with Tudors will often argue they're as good as a Rolex. In both cases, they're not.
Bit neither of us get fakes - that's the main thing!
Leylandeye said:
Well put but anyone who is spending money whether on a fake or genuine with the intention of impressing others is chasing a shallow dream. These watches are nice to own, nice to wear and almost nobody notices.
Wearing a fake must be a very depressing experience if you're trying to impress others.
What a shame that we live in a world where many judge on cost rather than value, especially when in reality fakes are such poor value.
One of the reasons I enjoy Jay Leno's garage is because he's enthusiastic about cars regardless of value.
Be even more depressing for the person wearing a genuine Rolex to impress people realising they spent all that money and could have achieved the same with a fake for less money!Wearing a fake must be a very depressing experience if you're trying to impress others.
What a shame that we live in a world where many judge on cost rather than value, especially when in reality fakes are such poor value.
One of the reasons I enjoy Jay Leno's garage is because he's enthusiastic about cars regardless of value.
Google Ali Express and fill your boots!
I have ordered out of curiosity a Sub Hulk homage by Pagani Design, the reviews of this watch seem quite impressive when you think it's cost me £58 delivered! I haven't received the watch yet but I'm interested to see how it compares to my real Omega Plant ocean I bought brand new in 2015
I have ordered out of curiosity a Sub Hulk homage by Pagani Design, the reviews of this watch seem quite impressive when you think it's cost me £58 delivered! I haven't received the watch yet but I'm interested to see how it compares to my real Omega Plant ocean I bought brand new in 2015
Milkbuttons said:
Google Ali Express and fill your boots!
I have ordered out of curiosity a Sub Hulk homage by Pagani Design, the reviews of this watch seem quite impressive when you think it's cost me £58 delivered! I haven't received the watch yet but I'm interested to see how it compares to my real Omega Plant ocean I bought brand new in 2015
I'm tempted to get a fake sub to wear at work to really upset people who 'pay my wages' so I can point out how rich they've made me. I have ordered out of curiosity a Sub Hulk homage by Pagani Design, the reviews of this watch seem quite impressive when you think it's cost me £58 delivered! I haven't received the watch yet but I'm interested to see how it compares to my real Omega Plant ocean I bought brand new in 2015
Greendubber said:
Milkbuttons said:
Google Ali Express and fill your boots!
I have ordered out of curiosity a Sub Hulk homage by Pagani Design, the reviews of this watch seem quite impressive when you think it's cost me £58 delivered! I haven't received the watch yet but I'm interested to see how it compares to my real Omega Plant ocean I bought brand new in 2015
I'm tempted to get a fake sub to wear at work to really upset people who 'pay my wages' so I can point out how rich they've made me. I have ordered out of curiosity a Sub Hulk homage by Pagani Design, the reviews of this watch seem quite impressive when you think it's cost me £58 delivered! I haven't received the watch yet but I'm interested to see how it compares to my real Omega Plant ocean I bought brand new in 2015
I can remember when my director saw that I had a newer and larger Planet ocean, it certainly raised an eyebrow haha
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