How can this be?
Discussion
Hi Rev's
maybe i'm a little bit naive but do most of those said manufactures not modify the off the shelf eta movements?. A little bit like AMG tweaking a merc engine? also the housing / milling of a watch has alot to do with the costs involved, oh and the design!
i am not arguing with you as i thnk your points are valid!
i just dont buy into the whole not spotting a fake thing, i have seen some great da vinci fakes but they somehow don't quite cut the mustard, even if they use the same paints
maybe i'm a little bit naive but do most of those said manufactures not modify the off the shelf eta movements?. A little bit like AMG tweaking a merc engine? also the housing / milling of a watch has alot to do with the costs involved, oh and the design!
i am not arguing with you as i thnk your points are valid!
i just dont buy into the whole not spotting a fake thing, i have seen some great da vinci fakes but they somehow don't quite cut the mustard, even if they use the same paints
rickybouy said:
Hi Rev's
maybe i'm a little bit naive but do most of those said manufactures not modify the off the shelf eta movements?. A little bit like AMG tweaking a merc engine? also the housing / milling of a watch has alot to do with the costs involved, oh and the design!
i am not arguing with you as i thnk your points are valid!
i just dont buy into the whole not spotting a fake thing, i have seen some great da vinci fakes but they somehow don't quite cut the mustard, even if they use the same paints
Some manufacturers modify the movements extensively, some modify them a little bit, some barely more than simply engraving their name on them!maybe i'm a little bit naive but do most of those said manufactures not modify the off the shelf eta movements?. A little bit like AMG tweaking a merc engine? also the housing / milling of a watch has alot to do with the costs involved, oh and the design!
i am not arguing with you as i thnk your points are valid!
i just dont buy into the whole not spotting a fake thing, i have seen some great da vinci fakes but they somehow don't quite cut the mustard, even if they use the same paints
It's a sad fact of life that fakes are getting harder and harder to tell from the real thing...
It's an Emile Pequignet quartz stainless/18ct in the style of the Cartier Santos watches of the time. Still looks modern today. I was in Grand Cayman in 2000 and a similar style (S/S & 18ct) was about (£2.5k) They do one at the moment that I quite like (but not as much as mine) and it is £3,400! http://www.boumanonline.nl/pequignet-4351438.html They have now returned to making automatic watches but a like lot of them made today they seem to be very thick and I am happy with my nice thin one which is approx 6mm thick.
I know all about auto movements and having lots of dials make them more expensive, but I would rather have a watch that keeps good time rather than lots of dials I'll never use and it's unlikely I'll meet somebody wearing the same watch, which so far I have not!
I have worn it every day except for about 6 years ago it went back to the factory and was returned with a new movement, new catch, 18ct winder button all for £250
I know all about auto movements and having lots of dials make them more expensive, but I would rather have a watch that keeps good time rather than lots of dials I'll never use and it's unlikely I'll meet somebody wearing the same watch, which so far I have not!
I have worn it every day except for about 6 years ago it went back to the factory and was returned with a new movement, new catch, 18ct winder button all for £250
I emailed trading standards and asked why these companies are allowed to trade, this is the reply:
Apologies for the delay in responding, I have been waiting to hear from my colleagues in Camden Trading Standards.
Having looked at the website it would appear that this trader may have unauthorised use of various Trader Marks.
The address that this trader uses - 27 Old Gloucester Street, London WC1N 3AX is an accommodation address.
Also looking at the website they talk about disputes and federal courts which suggests that the company may be American/based in America.
It is often very difficult to track down traders who are using an accommodation address and this company could well be based outside of the UK.
Kind regards
As you can see, trading standards are as useful as a chocolate tea pot.
Apologies for the delay in responding, I have been waiting to hear from my colleagues in Camden Trading Standards.
Having looked at the website it would appear that this trader may have unauthorised use of various Trader Marks.
The address that this trader uses - 27 Old Gloucester Street, London WC1N 3AX is an accommodation address.
Also looking at the website they talk about disputes and federal courts which suggests that the company may be American/based in America.
It is often very difficult to track down traders who are using an accommodation address and this company could well be based outside of the UK.
Kind regards
As you can see, trading standards are as useful as a chocolate tea pot.
ShadownINja said:
deejuic said:
I've been to Canal St. in NYC and looked at the low end and "high end" fakes/replicas. NONE of them compare the originals. They all have minor issues in the dials or the crowns, or the size. Additionally, most have inferior movements and the quality of the steel in the cases is not anywhere near on par w/ the originals.
Even on the high end replica movements, you can see that they are different (I compared my real panerai to the fake and it took a whole 1.2 seconds to see the difference).
Still, if you want the flash and not pay the steep price for a real piece. The fakes will pass for the real thing for 99% of the world, but not the 1% that really knows watches. In the end, some will last several years, but they aren't anywhere close to the same league as the real watches.
What do they gain by putting in an ETA movement? Why spend even 1 penny more than they need to? Are they going to provide a warranty? are you going to be able to return it? these things are designed to bring in as much money as possible with as little risk as possible. Even on the high end replica movements, you can see that they are different (I compared my real panerai to the fake and it took a whole 1.2 seconds to see the difference).
Still, if you want the flash and not pay the steep price for a real piece. The fakes will pass for the real thing for 99% of the world, but not the 1% that really knows watches. In the end, some will last several years, but they aren't anywhere close to the same league as the real watches.
They gain nothing by putting an ETA movement in any of these replicas. if anything, you'll get a chinese copy of an ETA movement.
I challenge anyone to show me a replica with a real ETA movement. It's not going to happen.
I appreciate what you're saying but I do often read about high end watches having movement problems (unless you service them regularly
). Plus what's to stop them putting an ETA movement in a fake? They're not expensive movements.toohuge said:
I emailed trading standards and asked why these companies are allowed to trade, this is the reply:
Apologies for the delay in responding, I have been waiting to hear from my colleagues in Camden Trading Standards.
Having looked at the website it would appear that this trader may have unauthorised use of various Trader Marks.
The address that this trader uses - 27 Old Gloucester Street, London WC1N 3AX is an accommodation address.
Also looking at the website they talk about disputes and federal courts which suggests that the company may be American/based in America.
It is often very difficult to track down traders who are using an accommodation address and this company could well be based outside of the UK.
Kind regards
As you can see, trading standards are as useful as a chocolate tea pot.
They're obviously too scared to send the boys round to knock on their door, asking why they're selling moody watches...Apologies for the delay in responding, I have been waiting to hear from my colleagues in Camden Trading Standards.
Having looked at the website it would appear that this trader may have unauthorised use of various Trader Marks.
The address that this trader uses - 27 Old Gloucester Street, London WC1N 3AX is an accommodation address.
Also looking at the website they talk about disputes and federal courts which suggests that the company may be American/based in America.
It is often very difficult to track down traders who are using an accommodation address and this company could well be based outside of the UK.
Kind regards
As you can see, trading standards are as useful as a chocolate tea pot.
It might be based out of the UK but they have a UK presence so they should do their bloody civic duty and get the fakes off the streets!
toohuge said:
I emailed trading standards and asked why these companies are allowed to trade, this is the reply:
Apologies for the delay in responding, I have been waiting to hear from my colleagues in Camden Trading Standards.
Having looked at the website it would appear that this trader may have unauthorised use of various Trader Marks.
The address that this trader uses - 27 Old Gloucester Street, London WC1N 3AX is an accommodation address.
Also looking at the website they talk about disputes and federal courts which suggests that the company may be American/based in America.
It is often very difficult to track down traders who are using an accommodation address and this company could well be based outside of the UK.
Kind regards
As you can see, trading standards are as useful as a chocolate tea pot.
You would probably get more of a response from emailing all the companies whos trade mark has been infringed on that website.Apologies for the delay in responding, I have been waiting to hear from my colleagues in Camden Trading Standards.
Having looked at the website it would appear that this trader may have unauthorised use of various Trader Marks.
The address that this trader uses - 27 Old Gloucester Street, London WC1N 3AX is an accommodation address.
Also looking at the website they talk about disputes and federal courts which suggests that the company may be American/based in America.
It is often very difficult to track down traders who are using an accommodation address and this company could well be based outside of the UK.
Kind regards
As you can see, trading standards are as useful as a chocolate tea pot.
CommanderJameson said:
Steve748 said:
My watch gains 1 second a month and cost £400 in 1982 and I would be well pissed off if I spent £kk's on any watch that wasn't accurate
Is your watch mechanical or quartz?ShadownINja said:
deejuic said:
Something
Can you re-do it, please?They gain nothing by putting an ETA movement in any of these replicas. if anything, you'll get a chinese copy of an ETA movement.
I challenge anyone to show me a replica with a real ETA movement. It's not going to happen.
You always hear about people saying that they have "heard" of high end fakes that have real movements, that are perfect copies, that are indistinguishable from the originals.
Is there anyone who actually can say this themselves? Not via a friend, but regarding a replica/fake watch that they themselves have purchased? I don't believe that these true high end fakes really exist.
Criminals aren't stupid. It just doesn't make any sense for them to risk the up front capital to create something like a high end fake. they make so much off of their low end fakes - and can better leverage their capital.
what's better business? sell 10 $50 fake watches or 1 $500 fake watch? Which is going to be easier to do? I guarantee you that 10 $50 fakes are easier to sell. And when you're talking about criminals, that's what they want to do. Granted, if they can sucker someone into paying $500 for a $50 fake, they will do that too, but I don't think that they'd make the extra effort to truly create a "high end" fake. doesn't make sense to me.
What does everyone else think?
Is there anyone who actually can say this themselves? Not via a friend, but regarding a replica/fake watch that they themselves have purchased? I don't believe that these true high end fakes really exist.
Criminals aren't stupid. It just doesn't make any sense for them to risk the up front capital to create something like a high end fake. they make so much off of their low end fakes - and can better leverage their capital.
what's better business? sell 10 $50 fake watches or 1 $500 fake watch? Which is going to be easier to do? I guarantee you that 10 $50 fakes are easier to sell. And when you're talking about criminals, that's what they want to do. Granted, if they can sucker someone into paying $500 for a $50 fake, they will do that too, but I don't think that they'd make the extra effort to truly create a "high end" fake. doesn't make sense to me.
What does everyone else think?
deejuic said:
You always hear about people saying that they have "heard" of high end fakes that have real movements, that are perfect copies, that are indistinguishable from the originals.
Is there anyone who actually can say this themselves? Not via a friend, but regarding a replica/fake watch that they themselves have purchased? I don't believe that these true high end fakes really exist.
What does everyone else think?
A Rolex-owning friend of mine has a very, very good Sub fake he bought for £80 as a beater because he couldnt believe how good it was. Sapphire glass with the Rolex crown etching, correct numerals, etc. I think the magnification is wrong on the cyclops, and it has an ETA instead of a Rolex movement, but it was still very impressive. Personally, I'm amazed they managed to get that spec out the door for £80!Is there anyone who actually can say this themselves? Not via a friend, but regarding a replica/fake watch that they themselves have purchased? I don't believe that these true high end fakes really exist.
What does everyone else think?
deejuic said:
You always hear about people saying that they have "heard" of high end fakes that have real movements, that are perfect copies, that are indistinguishable from the originals.
Is there anyone who actually can say this themselves? Not via a friend, but regarding a replica/fake watch that they themselves have purchased? I don't believe that these true high end fakes really exist.
Criminals aren't stupid. It just doesn't make any sense for them to risk the up front capital to create something like a high end fake. they make so much off of their low end fakes - and can better leverage their capital.
what's better business? sell 10 $50 fake watches or 1 $500 fake watch? Which is going to be easier to do? I guarantee you that 10 $50 fakes are easier to sell. And when you're talking about criminals, that's what they want to do. Granted, if they can sucker someone into paying $500 for a $50 fake, they will do that too, but I don't think that they'd make the extra effort to truly create a "high end" fake. doesn't make sense to me.
What does everyone else think?
I've just returned from a holiday in Turkey, where shops openly sell 'Genuine Fake Watches!'. These range from the laughable goods that have been knocking around for years at $10-$20, to some superbly made pieces selling at $500 and upwards. I had a very close inspection at the top-end pieces and they appear to be a very good replica of the intended item. Not just the regular diamond smothered Rolex Day-Dates, but more unusual,esoteric items such as Richard Mille,Porsche Design,Hublot,Breguet and Chanel.Is there anyone who actually can say this themselves? Not via a friend, but regarding a replica/fake watch that they themselves have purchased? I don't believe that these true high end fakes really exist.
Criminals aren't stupid. It just doesn't make any sense for them to risk the up front capital to create something like a high end fake. they make so much off of their low end fakes - and can better leverage their capital.
what's better business? sell 10 $50 fake watches or 1 $500 fake watch? Which is going to be easier to do? I guarantee you that 10 $50 fakes are easier to sell. And when you're talking about criminals, that's what they want to do. Granted, if they can sucker someone into paying $500 for a $50 fake, they will do that too, but I don't think that they'd make the extra effort to truly create a "high end" fake. doesn't make sense to me.
What does everyone else think?
I agree with you, I couldn't see a market for people willing to may more (and $500 will buy you a good watch anyway) for a top end replica. But there were people who were happily buying several ETA 'Ceramic' white Chanel J12 ceramic watches at $300 and upwards.
I couldn't understand why the watch companies weren't doing anything about it. In the town we visited the 'Genuine Fake' shop was directly opposite the large jewellers who are official Omega/Tag Heuer/Breitling stockists. In the UK or EU you wouldn't get away with such blatant flouting of trademark/copyright infringement. There was nothing under the counter about these guys, there were rows of fakes from every brand you can think of.
It was certainly an eye opener for me.
Dominic H said:
deejuic said:
You always hear about people saying that they have "heard" of high end fakes that have real movements, that are perfect copies, that are indistinguishable from the originals.
Is there anyone who actually can say this themselves? Not via a friend, but regarding a replica/fake watch that they themselves have purchased? I don't believe that these true high end fakes really exist.
Criminals aren't stupid. It just doesn't make any sense for them to risk the up front capital to create something like a high end fake. they make so much off of their low end fakes - and can better leverage their capital.
what's better business? sell 10 $50 fake watches or 1 $500 fake watch? Which is going to be easier to do? I guarantee you that 10 $50 fakes are easier to sell. And when you're talking about criminals, that's what they want to do. Granted, if they can sucker someone into paying $500 for a $50 fake, they will do that too, but I don't think that they'd make the extra effort to truly create a "high end" fake. doesn't make sense to me.
What does everyone else think?
I've just returned from a holiday in Turkey, where shops openly sell 'Genuine Fake Watches!'. These range from the laughable goods that have been knocking around for years at $10-$20, to some superbly made pieces selling at $500 and upwards. I had a very close inspection at the top-end pieces and they appear to be a very good replica of the intended item. Not just the regular diamond smothered Rolex Day-Dates, but more unusual,esoteric items such as Richard Mille,Porsche Design,Hublot,Breguet and Chanel.Is there anyone who actually can say this themselves? Not via a friend, but regarding a replica/fake watch that they themselves have purchased? I don't believe that these true high end fakes really exist.
Criminals aren't stupid. It just doesn't make any sense for them to risk the up front capital to create something like a high end fake. they make so much off of their low end fakes - and can better leverage their capital.
what's better business? sell 10 $50 fake watches or 1 $500 fake watch? Which is going to be easier to do? I guarantee you that 10 $50 fakes are easier to sell. And when you're talking about criminals, that's what they want to do. Granted, if they can sucker someone into paying $500 for a $50 fake, they will do that too, but I don't think that they'd make the extra effort to truly create a "high end" fake. doesn't make sense to me.
What does everyone else think?
I agree with you, I couldn't see a market for people willing to may more (and $500 will buy you a good watch anyway) for a top end replica. But there were people who were happily buying several ETA 'Ceramic' white Chanel J12 ceramic watches at $300 and upwards.
I couldn't understand why the watch companies weren't doing anything about it. In the town we visited the 'Genuine Fake' shop was directly opposite the large jewellers who are official Omega/Tag Heuer/Breitling stockists. In the UK or EU you wouldn't get away with such blatant flouting of trademark/copyright infringement. There was nothing under the counter about these guys, there were rows of fakes from every brand you can think of.
It was certainly an eye opener for me.
would you wear a $500 fake in the shower? if the answer is no, then what's the difference between that fake and a $50 one? both aren't durable. I'd expect to be able to wear a $500 real watch of virtually any make in the shower.
deejuic said:
Dominic H said:
deejuic said:
You always hear about people saying that they have "heard" of high end fakes that have real movements, that are perfect copies, that are indistinguishable from the originals.
Is there anyone who actually can say this themselves? Not via a friend, but regarding a replica/fake watch that they themselves have purchased? I don't believe that these true high end fakes really exist.
Criminals aren't stupid. It just doesn't make any sense for them to risk the up front capital to create something like a high end fake. they make so much off of their low end fakes - and can better leverage their capital.
what's better business? sell 10 $50 fake watches or 1 $500 fake watch? Which is going to be easier to do? I guarantee you that 10 $50 fakes are easier to sell. And when you're talking about criminals, that's what they want to do. Granted, if they can sucker someone into paying $500 for a $50 fake, they will do that too, but I don't think that they'd make the extra effort to truly create a "high end" fake. doesn't make sense to me.
What does everyone else think?
I've just returned from a holiday in Turkey, where shops openly sell 'Genuine Fake Watches!'. These range from the laughable goods that have been knocking around for years at $10-$20, to some superbly made pieces selling at $500 and upwards. I had a very close inspection at the top-end pieces and they appear to be a very good replica of the intended item. Not just the regular diamond smothered Rolex Day-Dates, but more unusual,esoteric items such as Richard Mille,Porsche Design,Hublot,Breguet and Chanel.Is there anyone who actually can say this themselves? Not via a friend, but regarding a replica/fake watch that they themselves have purchased? I don't believe that these true high end fakes really exist.
Criminals aren't stupid. It just doesn't make any sense for them to risk the up front capital to create something like a high end fake. they make so much off of their low end fakes - and can better leverage their capital.
what's better business? sell 10 $50 fake watches or 1 $500 fake watch? Which is going to be easier to do? I guarantee you that 10 $50 fakes are easier to sell. And when you're talking about criminals, that's what they want to do. Granted, if they can sucker someone into paying $500 for a $50 fake, they will do that too, but I don't think that they'd make the extra effort to truly create a "high end" fake. doesn't make sense to me.
What does everyone else think?
I agree with you, I couldn't see a market for people willing to may more (and $500 will buy you a good watch anyway) for a top end replica. But there were people who were happily buying several ETA 'Ceramic' white Chanel J12 ceramic watches at $300 and upwards.
I couldn't understand why the watch companies weren't doing anything about it. In the town we visited the 'Genuine Fake' shop was directly opposite the large jewellers who are official Omega/Tag Heuer/Breitling stockists. In the UK or EU you wouldn't get away with such blatant flouting of trademark/copyright infringement. There was nothing under the counter about these guys, there were rows of fakes from every brand you can think of.
It was certainly an eye opener for me.
would you wear a $500 fake in the shower? if the answer is no, then what's the difference between that fake and a $50 one? both aren't durable. I'd expect to be able to wear a $500 real watch of virtually any make in the shower.
You say you don't believe high end fakes exist, and ask if anyone has ever seen one.
One of the most respected members of this forum tells you that he's seen some, inspected them closely, and states they are 'superbly made'....
You then come back saying you don't believe his opinion...
If ANYONE on here is well placed to give an expert opinion on the quality of a fake it is Dom...
[quote]What are you trying to say here?
You say you don't believe high end fakes exist, and ask if anyone has ever seen one.
One of the most respected members of this forum tells you that he's seen some, inspected them closely, and states they are 'superbly made'....
You then come back saying you don't believe his opinion...
If ANYONE on here is well placed to give an expert opinion on the quality of a fake it is Dom...
[/quote]
I'm simply asking if he would feel confident wearing one of the high end fakes that he's seen in the shower. If he does, then it's clear that what he's seen is very different than what I've seen. If he doesn't feel comfortable, then how different can they be. Also, my comments were in regards to the movements. if the watches he saw didn't have exhibition backs, how could he tell if they were quality movements. he didn't really go into a discussion of the movements.
I didn't say that I didn't believe his opinion, but rather that I hadn't seen anything to change mine and that his discussion didn't really address my thoughts on the movements. Believe me when I say that I absolutely respect Dom's opinion. I've read his responses to many threads and find his insight to be very valuable...which is why I'd like his comments on the movements and further elaboration on his thoughts on the "shower test."
You say you don't believe high end fakes exist, and ask if anyone has ever seen one.
One of the most respected members of this forum tells you that he's seen some, inspected them closely, and states they are 'superbly made'....
You then come back saying you don't believe his opinion...
If ANYONE on here is well placed to give an expert opinion on the quality of a fake it is Dom...
[/quote]
I'm simply asking if he would feel confident wearing one of the high end fakes that he's seen in the shower. If he does, then it's clear that what he's seen is very different than what I've seen. If he doesn't feel comfortable, then how different can they be. Also, my comments were in regards to the movements. if the watches he saw didn't have exhibition backs, how could he tell if they were quality movements. he didn't really go into a discussion of the movements.
I didn't say that I didn't believe his opinion, but rather that I hadn't seen anything to change mine and that his discussion didn't really address my thoughts on the movements. Believe me when I say that I absolutely respect Dom's opinion. I've read his responses to many threads and find his insight to be very valuable...which is why I'd like his comments on the movements and further elaboration on his thoughts on the "shower test."
Revs_addiction said:
What are you trying to say here?
You say you don't believe high end fakes exist, and ask if anyone has ever seen one.
One of the most respected members of this forum tells you that he's seen some, inspected them closely, and states they are 'superbly made'....
You then come back saying you don't believe his opinion...
If ANYONE on here is well placed to give an expert opinion on the quality of a fake it is Dom...
You say you don't believe high end fakes exist, and ask if anyone has ever seen one.
One of the most respected members of this forum tells you that he's seen some, inspected them closely, and states they are 'superbly made'....
You then come back saying you don't believe his opinion...
If ANYONE on here is well placed to give an expert opinion on the quality of a fake it is Dom...
deejuic said:
I'm simply asking if he would feel confident wearing one of the high end fakes that he's seen in the shower. If he does, then it's clear that what he's seen is very different than what I've seen. If he doesn't feel comfortable, then how different can they be. Also, my comments were in regards to the movements. if the watches he saw didn't have exhibition backs, how could he tell if they were quality movements. he didn't really go into a discussion of the movements.
I didn't say that I didn't believe his opinion, but rather that I hadn't seen anything to change mine and that his discussion didn't really address my thoughts on the movements. Believe me when I say that I absolutely respect Dom's opinion. I've read his responses to many threads and find his insight to be very valuable...which is why I'd like his comments on the movements and further elaboration on his thoughts on the "shower test."
Easy lads!I didn't say that I didn't believe his opinion, but rather that I hadn't seen anything to change mine and that his discussion didn't really address my thoughts on the movements. Believe me when I say that I absolutely respect Dom's opinion. I've read his responses to many threads and find his insight to be very valuable...which is why I'd like his comments on the movements and further elaboration on his thoughts on the "shower test."
A little clarification might help.
I wouldn't wear a fake, ever. If I couldn't afford the watch I wanted, I'd look to buy something I liked within my budget. A lot of threads on here have shown that for around £100 you can buy a Seiko Monster which is built like a truck and will last years.
The watches I was shown, were very well presented. The cases were well finished, dials accurate and some of the rubber straps (Porsche Design,Hublot and Panerai) appeared OE standard. Much better than any of the low end,cheap fakes I had seen before.
With regard to the movements, clearly you cannot produce a working tourbillion chrono for $300 and quite a few corners were cut here. But, those watches that had closed backs (and therefore movements unexamined) were a very good representation of the original.
With regard to quality of build and reliability, who knows? Only buying and wearing one of these will show how durable/reliable they are. They could well fall apart after a month or two then what do you do? The sellers claim they are waterproof, but again if you are selling an illegal copy you can claim whatever you like.....
In summary, the look and feel after a few minutes examination was surprising. I handle the real thing everyday, and have done for over 20 years.
Clearly all fakers are not equal.....
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