Panerai finally clamping down on fakes and homages.
Discussion
I see TZ-UK have finally stopped the selling of 'marina militare' watches due to threats from Panerai regarding illegal intellectual copyright and trademark infringement.
http://www.tz-uk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t...
How long before these other Panerai crown guard copies and fakes are also stopped? I expect the use of the "marina militare' name is easier to police than the distinctive patented crown guard design.
There are some interesting posts about people receiving cease and desist legal notices from lawyers for selling copy watches on ebay and one poster having to stump up over 1000 euros to cover legal fees!
http://www.tz-uk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t...
How long before these other Panerai crown guard copies and fakes are also stopped? I expect the use of the "marina militare' name is easier to police than the distinctive patented crown guard design.
There are some interesting posts about people receiving cease and desist legal notices from lawyers for selling copy watches on ebay and one poster having to stump up over 1000 euros to cover legal fees!
Edited by el stovey on Wednesday 12th August 10:47
Whilst I'm no fan of Panerai, I respect them for doing the *proper* thing to beat the counterfeiters other than throwing lawsuits around. They're making their own distinctive movement, which will never be copied by the fakes.
At the moment, since Panerai themselves just slung a cheap movement into an easily-made case and charged thousands for it, virtually perfect fakes are available. There's not much in the way of IP being 'protected' when your original product used off-the-shelf parts. But now Panerai are selling their own movement - good on them. I'd like to see more of that, and less of the badge-engineering
At the moment, since Panerai themselves just slung a cheap movement into an easily-made case and charged thousands for it, virtually perfect fakes are available. There's not much in the way of IP being 'protected' when your original product used off-the-shelf parts. But now Panerai are selling their own movement - good on them. I'd like to see more of that, and less of the badge-engineering
whoami said:
cyberface said:
I respect them for doing the *proper* thing to beat the counterfeiters
But on another thread you said, "I've actually bought top-end fakes"So which is it?
Taking a cheapo generic ETA movement, polishing a pattern on one of the bridges and then calling it a 'manufacture caliber' is taking the mick out of less-informed customers. The fake makers are showing this shoddy practice up for what it is. Hell - that's just with the 'real' ETAs - there's even a Swiss company importing Chinese 'copy' ETAs (Sea-Gull make copies of the 2824 and 2892), polishing them up and re-selling them to the *Swiss* market as *Swiss* ETA movements.
I love mechanical movements and the pressure being put on the Swiss by the Chinese is a *good* thing - the Swiss are being forced to innovate and produce new, interesting, in-house movements. The fake makers won't be able to replicate these. This is good for everyone.
Or would you prefer the majority of top-end Swiss manufactures to make most of their watches with boggo ETA movements inside, so that when you're in the second hand market trying to buy a watch, you have no bloody idea whether you're looking at a genuine or a fake watch - even if you take the back off and examine the movement with a loupe?
There's a reason why *none* of the fake Patek Philippe watches resemble their genuine counterparts in anything other than a vague fashion. Find me a fake Patek that holds up under scrutiny next to a genuine item - there isn't one, since Patek don't use generic movements and thus the dial positioning, datewheels, case thickness etc. can be whatever Patek want. Similarly, there isn't a half-decent JLC Reverso fake on the market.
I'm not going to get into an argument over this as it's all been done before, and I'll say nothing more on the matter. But surely you must agree it's a *good* thing that Panerai are now making their own movements? Don't you agree that it makes their watches more *special*? And isn't that what it's all about?
cyberface said:
Taking a cheapo generic ETA movement, polishing a pattern on one of the bridges and then calling it a 'manufacture caliber' is taking the mick out of less-informed customers.
I don't think I'd go along with that. There is a difference between Panerai buying in a third-party movement, changing some bits, and calling it their own and IWC buying in a third-party movement in kit form, changing some bits, and calling it their own, but it's only a difference in degree.But even regardless of that, Panerai's entire history involves making large-cased watches with a third-party movement, and as long as people know that when they buy one then I don't think there's any mick-taking.
Your "less-informed customers" comment is perhaps a little bit pompous, given that in one of your previous lectures you castigated Panerai for "jumping on the big-watch bandwagon", evidently ignorant of the fact that they are just doing today what they have always done.
jamieboy said:
cyberface said:
Taking a cheapo generic ETA movement, polishing a pattern on one of the bridges and then calling it a 'manufacture caliber' is taking the mick out of less-informed customers.
I don't think I'd go along with that. There is a difference between Panerai buying in a third-party movement, changing some bits, and calling it their own and IWC buying in a third-party movement in kit form, changing some bits, and calling it their own, but it's only a difference in degree.But even regardless of that, Panerai's entire history involves making large-cased watches with a third-party movement, and as long as people know that when they buy one then I don't think there's any mick-taking.
Your "less-informed customers" comment is perhaps a little bit pompous, given that in one of your previous lectures you castigated Panerai for "jumping on the big-watch bandwagon", evidently ignorant of the fact that they are just doing today what they have always done.
As to any comment about Panerai 'jumping on the big-watch bandwagon' - I can't remember saying that, and if I did then I must have been pissed or talking out of my arse, since I'm well aware of Panerai's history. Apologies for the occasional misdirected ranting.
cyberface said:
As to any comment about Panerai 'jumping on the big-watch bandwagon' - I can't remember saying that, and if I did then I must have been pissed or talking out of my arse...
Of those two options, I'd go for the latter. http://pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&t...
jamieboy said:
cyberface said:
As to any comment about Panerai 'jumping on the big-watch bandwagon' - I can't remember saying that, and if I did then I must have been pissed or talking out of my arse...
Of those two options, I'd go for the latter. http://pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&t...
Blimey. What does it take with you?
cyberface said:
So I apologised to you in a thread in 2008, and you're bringing it back up to make me look like a fool now?
Blimey. What does it take with you?
You're maybe taking this too seriously. I'm not trying to make you look like a fool - you said you couldn't remember saying it, is all. Blimey. What does it take with you?
It stuck in my mind, becase while I'm more than happy to be corrected when I'm wrong or when I'm not sure, I'm less happy to be "corrected" when I'm right (probably because it is so rare
) - so when you made your comment about "less-informed consumers", it just kind of chimed. Sometimes people are better informed than they appear to be, and sometimes they are less.Back on-topic, I'm glad they're taking action on fakes and "homages" (
) I'm just surprised it took them so long.What I was getting at by the 'less-informed' description (and it wasn't meant as a slur or a snide remark, as you're well aware) was that not all watch fans are as single-minded about the movement as I am. Plenty of folks who have a nice collection of pieces that they are very fond of buy them for very different reasons other than the movement.
I just happen to think that in watches costing thousands of pounds, unless the whole thing is made of some precious or exotic material that alone justifies the cost, then the movement should be special - either a manufacture's own design, or one built by their craftsmen from kits, modifying along the way as required. That's just my opinion as everyone on this board knows. It doesn't make it right or wrong. Some people couldn't give a damn about the provenance of the movement as long as it works, and the rest of the watch is of exquisite quality and fineness. My girlfriend falls into this category, I'm trying to get her a Patek 24 which she'll be delighted with, quartz and all.
So it's entirely reasonable that there are people who are very into their watches but don't fuss about the minutiae of the movement - and unfortunately, given the minimal re-engineering done to the ETAs in the majority of Panerais up until now, these people could easily be fooled by a replica. That is what this thread was about - and I've seen how good the replicas are.
It is not just because of the counterfeiters - there is high demand in Switzerland for generic ETA movements from the small to medium sized independent watch houses, since Swatch owns ETA and is now restricting supply. Thus the Sea-Gull ETA clones are being imported into Switzerland for use by Swiss houses - and Sea-Gull therefore have raised their quality to suit.
A replica Panerai with a Sea-Gull movement, suitably decorated and with swan-neck regulator, would fool virtually everyone. Since Panerai aren't going to reduce their prices in line with the value of the movements, I think that they're doing the 'proper' thing by engineering their own. And having new movements on the market makes it more interesting!
There's nothing more than this to what I said - it's a good thing for Panerai and a good thing for watch lovers in general. It just seems that I appear to have rubbed you up the wrong way at some point in the past, and you just won't let it go.
I just happen to think that in watches costing thousands of pounds, unless the whole thing is made of some precious or exotic material that alone justifies the cost, then the movement should be special - either a manufacture's own design, or one built by their craftsmen from kits, modifying along the way as required. That's just my opinion as everyone on this board knows. It doesn't make it right or wrong. Some people couldn't give a damn about the provenance of the movement as long as it works, and the rest of the watch is of exquisite quality and fineness. My girlfriend falls into this category, I'm trying to get her a Patek 24 which she'll be delighted with, quartz and all.
So it's entirely reasonable that there are people who are very into their watches but don't fuss about the minutiae of the movement - and unfortunately, given the minimal re-engineering done to the ETAs in the majority of Panerais up until now, these people could easily be fooled by a replica. That is what this thread was about - and I've seen how good the replicas are.
It is not just because of the counterfeiters - there is high demand in Switzerland for generic ETA movements from the small to medium sized independent watch houses, since Swatch owns ETA and is now restricting supply. Thus the Sea-Gull ETA clones are being imported into Switzerland for use by Swiss houses - and Sea-Gull therefore have raised their quality to suit.
A replica Panerai with a Sea-Gull movement, suitably decorated and with swan-neck regulator, would fool virtually everyone. Since Panerai aren't going to reduce their prices in line with the value of the movements, I think that they're doing the 'proper' thing by engineering their own. And having new movements on the market makes it more interesting!
There's nothing more than this to what I said - it's a good thing for Panerai and a good thing for watch lovers in general. It just seems that I appear to have rubbed you up the wrong way at some point in the past, and you just won't let it go.
cyberface said:
What I was getting at by the 'less-informed' description (and it wasn't meant as a slur or a snide remark, as you're well aware) was that not all watch fans are as single-minded about the movement as I am.
It certainly came over as a snide remark, to be honest - you seemed to describe people who are less single-minded than you about the movement as "less-informed".cyberface said:
So it's entirely reasonable that there are people who are very into their watches but don't fuss about the minutiae of the movement
Agreed, and unlike you I don't think that makes them "less informed". It's possible to be well-informed about the movement and still accept it as part of the overall package.cyberface said:
It just seems that I appear to have rubbed you up the wrong way at some point in the past, and you just won't let it go.
I hope I've explained that bit in my previous post. You must see the irony?edit - you really shouldn't take it as a personal attack, it's all meant much more light-heartedly than I think you're reading it.
Edited by jamieboy on Thursday 13th August 18:00
Well, it reads as if you're accusing me of pomposity and arrogance, as if I'm looking down my nose at people who aren't as interested in the movements as I am. And I *do* take that personally, since it's a serious accusation.
I can assure you that I'm not arrogant at all, regardless of how you read my posts, and I'd be a fool to be so since I have plenty to learn and enjoy learning new things every day. I'm here to learn and share - I try to give back as well as just soak up everyone else's knowledge, and if I'm wrong then I'm happy to admit it.
Part of the risk of actually contributing is that you'll get things wrong, after all.
Regarding my opinion about people who choose not to get involved in the minutiae of the movement - I'm not making a *value* judgement on anybody FFS. I don't judge anyone as it's not my place to do so, and I get pissed off when people pass judgement on *me* based on late-night rants on an internet forum.
Because of the actual topic being discussed, I was pointing out that using generic movements in today's world makes it very difficult to spot a fake. That is all. And if I was a Panerai enthusiast who'd paid £4000 for a watch second hand, and it looked kosher but was a very well made fake, then I'd be livid. If you don't agree, and think that it's easy to spot a Panerai fake, then why not say so? Or if you don't care whether it's fake or not, why not say so? Instead of impugning my personality based off the way in which I tried to communicate this?
I can assure you that I'm not arrogant at all, regardless of how you read my posts, and I'd be a fool to be so since I have plenty to learn and enjoy learning new things every day. I'm here to learn and share - I try to give back as well as just soak up everyone else's knowledge, and if I'm wrong then I'm happy to admit it.
Part of the risk of actually contributing is that you'll get things wrong, after all.
Regarding my opinion about people who choose not to get involved in the minutiae of the movement - I'm not making a *value* judgement on anybody FFS. I don't judge anyone as it's not my place to do so, and I get pissed off when people pass judgement on *me* based on late-night rants on an internet forum.
Because of the actual topic being discussed, I was pointing out that using generic movements in today's world makes it very difficult to spot a fake. That is all. And if I was a Panerai enthusiast who'd paid £4000 for a watch second hand, and it looked kosher but was a very well made fake, then I'd be livid. If you don't agree, and think that it's easy to spot a Panerai fake, then why not say so? Or if you don't care whether it's fake or not, why not say so? Instead of impugning my personality based off the way in which I tried to communicate this?
And because of this move by Panerai, I have decided to jump on a chance to obtain one of these 'homages'. I really like Panerai watches, but just can't justify the prices to myself. I do also adore Frank Mueller watches (crazy hours etc), so decided to order something like this:
So well done Panerai - if you hadn't have started this action, I wouldn't have got it (probably).
So well done Panerai - if you hadn't have started this action, I wouldn't have got it (probably).
cyberface said:
And I *do* take that personally, since it's a serious accusation.
It isn't. It really isn't.Look, imagine we were mates - it's a massive leap, but stay with me - and we're in the pub, having a pint and chatting about watches. You'd say "yada yada yada less well-informed yada yada", I'd splutter into my beer and, laughing, say "get you with your 'less well-informed', a year ago you were saying...", and you'd laugh "fair point, what I really meant was..."*
That's all that's happened here. No character assassination.
*I'm wasted here. Wait till Mills & Boon hear about me...
jamieboy said:
cyberface said:
And I *do* take that personally, since it's a serious accusation.
It isn't. It really isn't.Look, imagine we were mates - it's a massive leap, but stay with me - and we're in the pub, having a pint and chatting about watches. You'd say "yada yada yada less well-informed yada yada", I'd splutter into my beer and, laughing, say "get you with your 'less well-informed', a year ago you were saying...", and you'd laugh "fair point, what I really meant was..."*
That's all that's happened here. No character assassination.
*I'm wasted here. Wait till Mills & Boon hear about me...
Life's too short - and I've got *much* heavier s
t to deal with in real life right now, so I don't want to waste time on internet arguments. We all like watches, after all. Honestly - yeah I write essays stream-of-consciousness style, and like to do loads of research, and like everyone else I make mistakes, but I am *anything* but pompous and arrogant in real life. Nobody I know considers me in the slightest bit stuck-up, and to be accused of that hurts. And yes, I'd rather be *me* than put on some rhino-skin 'who gives a fk what anyone else thinks' persona on the internet. It'd be easy to come across the keyboard warrior and to give you the full two barrels, but I'm not like that.Have a virtual pint from me then.
(and while you're being more friendly - given that you appear to be the Panerai expert - where the hell *are* those 40mm Panerais that I thought existed in the original 'big watch' thread? I do like the style, but can't wear 44mm without looking silly. I'd love an Anonimo because they *do* have the Florentine watch craft 'heritage', but again minimum size 42mm, maybe I could get away with it. Incidentally - and you may find this interesting - Anonimo have started pointing out on their website that their base movements are either 'real' ETA or the Sellita (clone).... (e.g. on the Polluce range, which I love in bronze) - Swatch are restricting 'real' ETA supply and that's forcing the indies to go elsewhere. How long before a big-name brand *admits* they're using Sea-Gull ETA clones - bringing the Chinese in from the cold? Interesting stuff)
cyberface said:
given that you appear to be the Panerai expert - where the hell *are* those 40mm Panerais that I thought existed in the original 'big watch' thread?
I'm very far from an expert.AFAIK, a few different 40mm watches were introduced around 1999 - model numbers are PAM 48, 49, 50, 51, 119, 120, 125, and 159 - there may well be others.
It looks like the 48, 49, 50, 51 have the highest production figures of any Panerai.
Some of the Radiomir were 42mm, too.
www.paneristi.com is a good reference site for this kind of thing.
Don1 said:
And because of this move by Panerai, I have decided to jump on a chance to obtain one of these 'homages'. I really like Panerai watches, but just can't justify the prices to myself. I do also adore Frank Mueller watches (crazy hours etc), so decided to order something like this:
So well done Panerai - if you hadn't have started this action, I wouldn't have got it (probably).
Where are you getting that from Don?So well done Panerai - if you hadn't have started this action, I wouldn't have got it (probably).
I had been thinking about picking up something with a similar style, but seeing as all homages have been banned from TimeZone I am not really sure where to look. I have seen Military Time mentioned somewhere I think.. I'd prefer a plain dial without any text, although providing it wasnt Panerai or some cheesey sounding name I'd consider some sort of writing.
Oh right, I see. I did sort of know it was to do with 'Marina Militare'. I guess my problem was that they're the ones that are mostly advertised on TZ and seem to have reasonable respect, I've not been looking in Sales Corner much as there's no rush to get the watch, I'll just have to have a more detailed look when the time comes.
However, I'd still like to know the details on the one Don posted.
However, I'd still like to know the details on the one Don posted.
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