Mustang down at Legends, Pilot o.k
Discussion
Total loss said:
Seeing all that carnage rather puts our current cosy existences into perspective.As E Harding said (on the other Flying Legends thread), all accidents are the result of a chain of events, break the chain and you avoid the accident.
I also do not wish to speculate as to the exact chain, but (having been a Formation Member and also Leader on many occassions) I will comment upon what I could see in the various videos that have been posted.
Firstly, that was not a routine 'Run-in-and-Break' but a Break from Vic and, while it may have been done many times before at Air Shows, possibly familiarity breeds complacency.
A Run-in-and-Break is designed to get a formation on the ground as quickly as possibly while staying within the confines of an airfield (and its defences). As such it is done from Echelon Starboard or Echelon Port. The advantage here being that, as each a/c breaks in turn, you can see the a/c ahead so no one looses their spatial orientation. It has been mooted earlier in the thread that breaking out of Formation may lead to disorientation but this is not the case – you merely look out of the window and fly the a/c visually to the correct datums. This is a lot simpler than, say, the transition from instruments to visual at the end of an Instrument Approach.
A Break from Vic serves absolutely no purpose whatsoever save to look 'Punchy' in front of a crowd at a show. It is also, while not inherently dangerous, full of pitfalls that can trap the unwary or complacent pilot. Specifically, Nos 2 and 3 are turning away from the Leader, going belly up and thus losing the 'Tally' (visual). If the Leader breaks upwards in a straight line, or continues level in a straight line then this is not a problem because separation is increasing. Where it gets a wee bit more tricky is if the Leader also turns. In this case, to provide separation to the Flight Paths, the Leader needs to ensure there is Vertical separation and (ideally) Horizontal separation. That is to say the leader should pull up and extend before initiating the turn.
Looking at the videos, as the break occurs the Leader pulls up, No 2 starts a level turn to Starboard (all well and good so far), and No 3 Starts his turn to port. However, the Leader's pitch up appears rather slack meaning he has achieved less than ideal vertical separation, and this is compounded by the fact that he appears not to extend but to immediately enter a hard turn to port. As No 3 turns it looks like he started pulling before he had rolled sufficiently, meaning that his turn was slack and that he started to climb (remember there was a lot of energy in this manoeuvre), and there may also have been some 'Skid' in the turn (although it's difficult to to be certain). It may also have been a result from the differing roll and turn rates between two significantly different a/c. No 3 is unsighted on the Leader and, I would guess, the Leader was looking ahead and not back towards the No 3. Had he been doing so he might have been able to avoid the collision by unloading and rolling the other way; certainly as soon as the Break was established only he was in a position to do something about the 'Chain'.
Having said that, the Leader did bloody well to get out as fast as he did and the Skyraider pilot did a good job of getting his a/c down sans 4 feet of wing and sans pitot tube!
I'm glad to know that both are safe.
I also do not wish to speculate as to the exact chain, but (having been a Formation Member and also Leader on many occassions) I will comment upon what I could see in the various videos that have been posted.
Firstly, that was not a routine 'Run-in-and-Break' but a Break from Vic and, while it may have been done many times before at Air Shows, possibly familiarity breeds complacency.
A Run-in-and-Break is designed to get a formation on the ground as quickly as possibly while staying within the confines of an airfield (and its defences). As such it is done from Echelon Starboard or Echelon Port. The advantage here being that, as each a/c breaks in turn, you can see the a/c ahead so no one looses their spatial orientation. It has been mooted earlier in the thread that breaking out of Formation may lead to disorientation but this is not the case – you merely look out of the window and fly the a/c visually to the correct datums. This is a lot simpler than, say, the transition from instruments to visual at the end of an Instrument Approach.
A Break from Vic serves absolutely no purpose whatsoever save to look 'Punchy' in front of a crowd at a show. It is also, while not inherently dangerous, full of pitfalls that can trap the unwary or complacent pilot. Specifically, Nos 2 and 3 are turning away from the Leader, going belly up and thus losing the 'Tally' (visual). If the Leader breaks upwards in a straight line, or continues level in a straight line then this is not a problem because separation is increasing. Where it gets a wee bit more tricky is if the Leader also turns. In this case, to provide separation to the Flight Paths, the Leader needs to ensure there is Vertical separation and (ideally) Horizontal separation. That is to say the leader should pull up and extend before initiating the turn.
Looking at the videos, as the break occurs the Leader pulls up, No 2 starts a level turn to Starboard (all well and good so far), and No 3 Starts his turn to port. However, the Leader's pitch up appears rather slack meaning he has achieved less than ideal vertical separation, and this is compounded by the fact that he appears not to extend but to immediately enter a hard turn to port. As No 3 turns it looks like he started pulling before he had rolled sufficiently, meaning that his turn was slack and that he started to climb (remember there was a lot of energy in this manoeuvre), and there may also have been some 'Skid' in the turn (although it's difficult to to be certain). It may also have been a result from the differing roll and turn rates between two significantly different a/c. No 3 is unsighted on the Leader and, I would guess, the Leader was looking ahead and not back towards the No 3. Had he been doing so he might have been able to avoid the collision by unloading and rolling the other way; certainly as soon as the Break was established only he was in a position to do something about the 'Chain'.
Having said that, the Leader did bloody well to get out as fast as he did and the Skyraider pilot did a good job of getting his a/c down sans 4 feet of wing and sans pitot tube!
I'm glad to know that both are safe.
Edited by Ginetta G15 Girl on Tuesday 12th July 01:45
Total loss said:
A little bit of historical info, the paint scheme of the P-51 Big Beautiful Doll is of an aircraft of the 78th Fighter Group which was based at Duxford in WWII. Many aircraft of the 78th came to grief on and local to Duxford 66 + years ago.
http://www.ulongbeach.com/crashes.html
there are some great photos on that website, well worthing looking in all the sectionshttp://www.ulongbeach.com/crashes.html
Pilot talks about it here http://www.itv.com/anglia/pilot-speaks-about-crash...
spitfire-ian said:
Pilot talks about it here http://www.itv.com/anglia/pilot-speaks-about-crash...
The other aircraft involved was a 'Sky Rider' apparently 
Ginetta G15 Girl said:
It has been mooted earlier in the thread that breaking out of Formation may lead to disorientation but this is not the case
According to the AAIB report for the Huricane, it could be the case. This was regarding a tail chase, but presumably it could apply to any formation flying where an aircraft is focussed on a leader?"Losing sight of the lead aircraft during a manoeuvre will require the pilot of the following aircraft to identify his situation, either completing the manoeuvre, or carrying out some other appropriate action. The following pilot must still retain a high degree of situational awareness of factors such as airspeed, height and aircraft attitude. At low height and with time pressures, such decision making must be very rapid in an environment, possibly, of conflicting information.
It is also possible in certain situations for a pilot to experience spatial disorientation, which can lead to a severe degradation in the pilot’s performance and a loss of situational awareness."
I did wonder on Saturday why there was a mismatch of aircraft in some of the vics. it went something like:
Mustang (lead) Skyraider, Corsair.
S.Fury, S.Fury, S.Fury, Mustang.
Mustang, Skyraider, Mustang.
Hawk, Mustang, Mustang.
Spitfire, Spitfire, Spitfire,
Bouchon, Bouchon, Spitfire.
P40, P40, P40.
Corsair
etc. etc.
Some of the vics had what on the face of it appear to be quite a difference in performance characteristics - such as the Skyraider Mustang in question.
I can only think that the formation was planned that way to put the more experienced pilots in the lead positions regardless of aircraft type?
spitfire-ian said:
Pilot talks about it here http://www.itv.com/anglia/pilot-speaks-about-crash...
What's a Sky Rider?dr_gn said:
Ginetta G15 Girl said:
It has been mooted earlier in the thread that breaking out of Formation may lead to disorientation but this is not the case
According to the AAIB report for the Hurricane, it could be the case. This was regarding a tail chase, but presumably it could apply to any formation flying where an aircraft is focused on a leader?Rather than 'Cherry Pick' the AAIB report into the Hurricane crash at Shoreham, the fact is that the Hurricane pilot attempted to execute a rolling manoeuvre with insufficient height and energy for the a/c to recover, although I agree there were a number of Contributory Factors, not least the fact that the pilot had stated he would not carry out any rolling manoeuvres and that the Display hadn't been practiced nor (it appears) adequately briefed.
My point about being 'unsighted' in a Formation Break not leading to disorientation (I should have said in good VMC) is that it is a known, planned, and practiced manoeuvre. So, for eg, if it is an Break from Echelon you fly in at a known X ft and Y kts, the Lead calls the break and initiates his/her turn and the Formation breaks in turn in exactly the same way after Z secs. As the Lead breaks the No 2 becomes effectively the Lead for No 3 and so on. Thus Horizontal separation is gained via the the fact that each a/c breaks after a certain time interval from the one in front.
In the Duxford Accident the Break was from Vic so each member of the Formation knew that the Leader would become unsighted (the Geometry of the thing means that it is ever thus), so it is even more incumbent upon each pilot to fly the manoeuvre to pre-determined datums so as to ensure separation. Sadly, in this case that didn't occur.
dr_gn said:
I can only think that the formation was planned that way to put the more experienced pilots in the lead positions regardless of aircraft type?
Possibly, although I wasn't at the Briefing so I wouldn't wish to speculate. All I would say is that Display Flying is full of pitfalls for the unwary especially with differing a/c types and differing pilot experience levels. Doing it close to the ground is even more hazardous because the ground will always win.Ginetta G15 Girl said:
dr_gn said:
Ginetta G15 Girl said:
It has been mooted earlier in the thread that breaking out of Formation may lead to disorientation but this is not the case
According to the AAIB report for the Hurricane, it could be the case. This was regarding a tail chase, but presumably it could apply to any formation flying where an aircraft is focused on a leader?Rather than 'Cherry Pick' the AAIB report into the Hurricane crash at Shoreham, the fact is that the Hurricane pilot attempted to execute a rolling manoeuvre with insufficient height and energy for the a/c to recover, although I agree there were a number of Contributory Factors, not least the fact that the pilot had stated he would not carry out any rolling manoeuvres and that the Display hadn't been practiced nor (it appears) adequately briefed.
My point about being 'unsighted' in a Formation Break not leading to disorientation (I should have said in good VMC) is that it is a known, planned, and practiced manoeuvre. So, for eg, if it is an Break from Echelon you fly in at a known X ft and Y kts, the Lead calls the break and initiates his/her turn and the Formation breaks in turn in exactly the same way after Z secs. As the Lead breaks the No 2 becomes effectively the Lead for No 3 and so on. Thus Horizontal separation is gained via the the fact that each a/c breaks after a certain time interval from the one in front.
In the Duxford Accident the Break was from Vic so each member of the Formation knew that the Leader would become unsighted (the Geometry of the thing means that it is ever thus), so it is even more incumbent upon each pilot to fly the manoeuvre to pre-determined datums so as to ensure separation. Sadly, in this case that didn't occur.
dr_gn said:
I can only think that the formation was planned that way to put the more experienced pilots in the lead positions regardless of aircraft type?
Possibly, although I wasn't at the Briefing so I wouldn't wish to speculate. All I would say is that Display Flying is full of pitfalls for the unwary especially with differing a/c types and differing pilot experience levels. Doing it close to the ground is even more hazardous because the ground will always win.FWIW I wasn't cherry picking the report - it seemed like a general comment on formation flying. I'd read it before and thought it was a similar situation in this case for the #2 pilot.
Eric Mc said:
More airshow crashes occur following low altitude rolls than any other manoeuver - so I've heard.
It must be very tempting to put in an extra 10% to impress the crowd, but run out of sky as a result. When your opponent is the ground (unbeaten as stated), it doesn't make sense to take the risk.Eric, I doubt that's true, looking at UK airshow crashes at least:
DH-110, Farnborough 1952: structural failure
Seamew, Belfast 1956: slow roll
Vulcan, Syesteron 1958: structural failure
Atlantic, Farnborough 1968: loss of control during single engine flight
Blackhawk, Farnborough 1974: roll at low altitude
A-26 Invader, Biggin Hill 1980: barrel roll at low altitude
MiG-29 x 2, Fairford 1993: mid-air collision
P-38 Lightning, Duxford 1996: likely mechanical failure during low altitude roll
Mosquito, Barton 1996: engine failure during a wing over
Bf-109, Duxford 1997: mishandled engine/landing
Turbulent, Swanton Morley 1998: mishandled wingover
L-29 Delfin, Eastbourne 2000: possibly disorientation during descending roll
Vampire, Biggin Hill 2001: wake vortex from Sea Vixen
P-63 Kingcobra, Biggin Hill 2001: mishandled loop/stall turn
Harrier, Lowestoft 2002: inadvertent throttle back while hovering
Ryan replica, Coventry 2003: structural failure
Firefly, Duxford 2003: mishandled wingover or Derry turn
Hurricane, Shoreham 2007: unplanned barrel roll
P-51 Mustang, Duxford 2011: mid air collision during run and break
DH-110, Farnborough 1952: structural failure
Seamew, Belfast 1956: slow roll
Vulcan, Syesteron 1958: structural failure
Atlantic, Farnborough 1968: loss of control during single engine flight
Blackhawk, Farnborough 1974: roll at low altitude
A-26 Invader, Biggin Hill 1980: barrel roll at low altitude
MiG-29 x 2, Fairford 1993: mid-air collision
P-38 Lightning, Duxford 1996: likely mechanical failure during low altitude roll
Mosquito, Barton 1996: engine failure during a wing over
Bf-109, Duxford 1997: mishandled engine/landing
Turbulent, Swanton Morley 1998: mishandled wingover
L-29 Delfin, Eastbourne 2000: possibly disorientation during descending roll
Vampire, Biggin Hill 2001: wake vortex from Sea Vixen
P-63 Kingcobra, Biggin Hill 2001: mishandled loop/stall turn
Harrier, Lowestoft 2002: inadvertent throttle back while hovering
Ryan replica, Coventry 2003: structural failure
Firefly, Duxford 2003: mishandled wingover or Derry turn
Hurricane, Shoreham 2007: unplanned barrel roll
P-51 Mustang, Duxford 2011: mid air collision during run and break
I suppose it depends on what you look on as a rolling manouever. There were also quite a few wingover errors - which, if not a full roll, are a semi-rolling manouever.
Let's put it this way, if you initiate a roll, wingover or loop at too low an entry speed or allow your airspeed to decay during the manoeuver, you are going to struggle to recover the situation.
Let's put it this way, if you initiate a roll, wingover or loop at too low an entry speed or allow your airspeed to decay during the manoeuver, you are going to struggle to recover the situation.
DamienB said:
P-38 Lightning, Duxford 1996: likely mechanical failure during low altitude roll
A far from extensive list, you might like to add in RAF crashes as well as Display Practice crashes. While I wouldn't say the majority of Air Show Incidents are Rolling Manoeuvres gone wrong, I would say a high proportion are.With regards to Hoof Proudfoot's crash in the P38, the investigation claimed a possible mechanical failure.
I watched it happen, the a/c completed a climbing Barrel Roll and continued into a second Barrel. The Entry tp this was nose low and throughout the second Barrel is was clearly apparent that not enough pitch up had been applied resulting, inevitably, in an encounter with Cumulo-Granitus.
DamienB said:
Seamew, Belfast 1956: slow roll
Blackhawk, Farnborough 1974: roll at low altitude
A-26 Invader, Biggin Hill 1980: barrel roll at low altitude
P-38 Lightning, Duxford 1996: likely mechanical failure during low altitude roll
Mosquito, Barton 1996: engine failure during a wing over
Turbulent, Swanton Morley 1998: mishandled wingover
L-29 Delfin, Eastbourne 2000: possibly disorientation during descending roll
Firefly, Duxford 2003: mishandled wingover or Derry turn
Hurricane, Shoreham 2007: unplanned barrel roll
So out of your list of 19 Incidents, nine were large rolling manoeuvres at low level!Blackhawk, Farnborough 1974: roll at low altitude
A-26 Invader, Biggin Hill 1980: barrel roll at low altitude
P-38 Lightning, Duxford 1996: likely mechanical failure during low altitude roll
Mosquito, Barton 1996: engine failure during a wing over
Turbulent, Swanton Morley 1998: mishandled wingover
L-29 Delfin, Eastbourne 2000: possibly disorientation during descending roll
Firefly, Duxford 2003: mishandled wingover or Derry turn
Hurricane, Shoreham 2007: unplanned barrel roll
Edited by Ginetta G15 Girl on Wednesday 13th July 16:24
Gassing Station | Boats, Planes & Trains | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff