Liquid water on Mars?

[Hooli]

paulmon said:

Richard Burton said:

No-one would have believed, in the last years of the nineteenth century, that human affairs were being watched from the timeless worlds of space. No-one could have dreamed that we were being scrutinized, as someone with a microscope studies creatures that swarm and multiply in a drop of water. Few men even considered the possibility of life on other planets. And yet, across the gulf of space, minds immeasurably superior to ours regarded this earth with envious eyes; and slowly, and surely, they drew their plans against us.

Looking around at the 'humans' here those tin snails mentioned earlier would have immeasurably superior minds.

[Snoggledog]

Er. Sorry chaps but that's complete and utter horse crap. Look at how the picture starts of light but goes darker over time. The veins of 'water' can be seen when it's light and get darker and more obvious when the pictures get darker. It's something miraculous called a shadow caused by the sun changing angle as it passes overhead.

[RobDickinson]

Snoggledog said:

Er. Sorry chaps but that's complete and utter horse crap. Look at how the picture starts of light but goes darker over time. The veins of 'water' can be seen when it's light and get darker and more obvious when the pictures get darker. It's something miraculous called a shadow caused by the sun changing angle as it passes overhead.

You realise these shots are from over a years time and cover winter-> spring -> summer right?

And that Nasa may just have thought about the whole shadow possibility?

I guess water on Mars is as important for a mission to there as anything else. Though it still looks like a one way ticket sofar..

[Simpo Two]

I don't think NASA would be fooled by shadows. O-rings possibly, but not shadows.

Can't they point a spectrograph or similar at it and find out?

[Snoggledog]

RobDickinson said:

You realise these shots are from over a years time and cover winter-> spring -> summer right?

And that Nasa may just have thought about the whole shadow possibility?

I guess water on Mars is as important for a mission to there as anything else. Though it still looks like a one way ticket sofar..

Yep, I do realise that. But someone at NASA seems to have forgotten that there's a lot of sand on Mars and wind speeds can reach 300 mph or thereabouts. I seriously doubt that is water but flowing sand.

[TimJMS]

db said:

i refuse to believe that the only life in the universe is on earth. there is more out there that we'll never see or hear due to the vast distances involved.

i always feel very small when i see this

http://www.co-intelligence.org/newsletter/comparis...

And VY Canis Majoris is believed to be several orders of magnitude bigger than Antares

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Star-sizes.jpg

[MarkK]

Snoggledog said:

Yep, I do realise that. But someone at NASA seems to have forgotten that there's a lot of sand on Mars and wind speeds can reach 300 mph or thereabouts. I seriously doubt that is water but flowing sand.

Well you'd best get on the phone to them quick and let them know before they make complete idiots of themselves! They may even offer you a position in the Check the F*****g Obvious Department.

Be sure to let us know what they say...

[Snoggledog]

MarkK said:

Well you'd best get on the phone to them quick and let them know before they make complete idiots of themselves! They may even offer you a position in the Check the F*****g Obvious Department.

Be sure to let us know what they say...

Ooooo. Suits you Sir!

So NASA have never ever ever in the history of that administration got anything wrong?

[Eric Mc]

Snoggledog said:

MarkK said:

Well you'd best get on the phone to them quick and let them know before they make complete idiots of themselves! They may even offer you a position in the Check the F*****g Obvious Department.

Be sure to let us know what they say...

Ooooo. Suits you Sir!

So NASA have never ever ever in the history of that administration got anything wrong?

No - but it is much more likely that they are right and it is YOU who are wrong.

Regarding your wind blown sand theory - you do realise that the Martian atmosphere is incredibly thin and even at 300 mph does not have the oomph to move sand in the way you are predicting. Have you tested your theory experimentally i.e. simulated the movement of Martian type sand grains in a 300 mph Martian wind?

If not, your theory is just idle speculation.

Indeed, you seem to have come up with TWO theories - the other being the shadow theory. It is relatively easy to work out shadows and shadow angles as they are directly related to the local topography and the sun angle at the time of the photo. I am pretty sure the scientists would have checked for what shadows should have been cast by the local topography at the time of the pictures and very quickly elminated any possibility that they were shadows.

Please give these chaps some credit for their knowledge.

[Snoggledog]

Eric Mc said:

No - but it is much more likely that they are right and it is YOU who are wrong.

Quite possibly, but I stated an opinion based on the facts presented.

Eric Mc said:

Regarding your wind blown sand theory - you do realise that the Martian atmosphere is incredibly thin and even at 300 mph does not have the oomph to move sand in the way you are predicting. Have you tested your theory experimentally i.e. simulated the movement of Martian type sand grains in a 300 mph Martian wind?

If not, your theory is just idle speculation.

Funny that you mention that, I just happen to have a hermetically sealed and pressure variable wind tunnel handy in my flat and will be able to refute any and all allegations you may wish to pose. Of course it's speculation.

Eric Mc said:

Indeed, you seem to have come up with TWO theories - the other being the shadow theory. It is relatively easy to work out shadows and shadow angles as they are directly related to the local topography and the sun angle at the time of the photo. I am pretty sure the scientists would have checked for what shadows should have been cast by the local topography at the time of the pictures and very quickly elminated any possibility that they were shadows.

Please give these chaps some credit for their knowledge.

Regarding how good those chaps are may I indulge you in a little game of 'spot the difference'



As you well know mistakes can and indeed have been made. I am speculating that this is a mistake. It is my opinion that this is a mistake. I do not have the scientific evidence to back it up. I do not have the available tools to disprove or ratify either their or my own suggestions. I am simply stating that it is my opinion that they are wrong with their analysis.

Conversely, can YOU prove that they are right, or do you always assume that when someone in authority tells you something, they are correct?

[Eric Mc]

Your opinion is based on very little factual information.

Their opinion is based on an in-depth study of the planet and knowledge built up over almost 50 yerars of space probe studies of the planet.

I know who's opinion I value more.

Anyone can have an opinion.

The difference is whether the opinion is based on knowledge or ignorance.

Not all opinions carry equal weight.

[Snoggledog]

Shrugs shoulders.

Fair enough.

But when the temperature on Mars varies (roughly) between -5 and -87 and the pressure is so low, the chance of liquid water is vanishingly small. To be lucky enough to have a satellite in the right place at the right time to actually film an occurance such as this over a period of time is even more remote. You're happy to shoot me down in flames but you're not happy to even consider the possibility that NASA might, potentially have got it wrong.

[Eric Mc]

Snoggledog said:

Shrugs shoulders.

Fair enough.

But when the temperature on Mars varies (roughly) between -5 and -87 and the pressure is so low, the chance of liquid water is vanishingly small. To be lucky enough to have a satellite in the right place at the right time to actually film an occurance such as this over a period of time is even more remote. You're happy to shoot me down in flames but you're not happy to even consider the possibility that NASA might, potentially have got it wrong.

That was the common consensus until a couple of years ago. However, it is now known that Martian soil and the frozen water found at the north pole by the Phoenix klander contains huge amounts of salts - whcih help keep water that would normally be frozen in a liquid state, for short periods of time. Scientists were amazed to see liquid water condensing on the struts and poles of the Phoenix lander as it condensed out of the Martian atmosphere.




Mars is a much more curious and diverse world than we thought even only five years ago.

[Snoggledog]

Surface pressure ranges between (0.4–0.87) kPa
Surface temperature ranges between −153 °C and 20 °C (Yes, I was incorrect in my previous post).

If you do a comparison on the graph using those ranges of figures (NASA sourced so they have to be correct ), you'll see that the possibility of liquid water is vanishingly small.

Editted to make the picture a bit bigger

Edited by Snoggledog on Saturday 6th August 14:29

[Eric Mc]

But not impossible.

[Snoggledog]

Eric Mc said:

That was the common consensus until a couple of years ago. However, it is now known that Martian soil and the frozen water found at the north pole by the Phoenix klander contains huge amounts of salts - whcih help keep water that would normally be frozen in a liquid state, for short periods of time. Scientists were amazed to see liquid water condensing on the struts and poles of the Phoenix lander as it condensed out of the Martian atmosphere.




Mars is a much more curious and diverse world than we thought even only five years ago.

Interesting. Now that's the kind of evidence I'm looking for. Simply stating that I'm wrong will never shut me up. Proving me wrong will

Eric Mc said:

But not impossible

True. But as I stated, vanishingly small.

[Eric Mc]

I think what they have been suggesting is not gushing springs of pure water rolling down these slopes - but more along the lines of heavily salted liquid water mixed in with rocks and dust - more of a salty sludge than a torrent.

My impression from all the findings of the last three or four years is that a large chunk of Mars is actually a frozen salty ocean over wich is lying a fairly thin layer of sand and dust.

[cerbfan]

That graph is for fresh water not heavily salted which would make it much less unlikely.

[tank slapper]

RobDickinson said:

You realise these shots are from over a years time and cover winter-> spring -> summer right?

Not only that, but the photos are taken from various angles and have been corrected as though they were taken from overhead.

[Snoggledog]

Without know what the salinity levels of the water are or what the thermal properties of the other stuff bound up with the water, it will be impossible to work out what the liquid points are for PVT on Mars.

I'm sticking to my gut reaction that it's highly unlikely.