Liquid water on Mars?
Discussion
RacerMDR said:
You are spot on. Watching documentaries about creatures found at bottom of our ocean, that 'couldn't' exist , but do.
Snails with metal shells etc.
Psychics might apply, but chemistry is open.
There is no reason to think that other life forms exist, whatever parameters they came from
Snails with metal shells etc.
Psychics might apply, but chemistry is open.
There is no reason to think that other life forms exist, whatever parameters they came from
Here is an interview with the scientist who published this: http://www.sciencemag.org/content/suppl/2011/08/04...
It should be generally accessible.
He explains the thinking behind it - He's not making a claim that this is definitely cause by water, but that it does fit the data and these features are sufficiently interesting to warrant further close investigation. The published paper and supporting material have comparisons with several different models as to what could cause such features, with briny surface flow and shallow subsurface flow being most consistent with what has been observed.
If you have access to an academic library, it's published in Science vol 333, issue 6043. 5th August 2011.
It should be generally accessible.
He explains the thinking behind it - He's not making a claim that this is definitely cause by water, but that it does fit the data and these features are sufficiently interesting to warrant further close investigation. The published paper and supporting material have comparisons with several different models as to what could cause such features, with briny surface flow and shallow subsurface flow being most consistent with what has been observed.
If you have access to an academic library, it's published in Science vol 333, issue 6043. 5th August 2011.
Snoggledog said:
Without know what the salinity levels of the water are or what the thermal properties of the other stuff bound up with the water, it will be impossible to work out what the liquid points are for PVT on Mars.
I'm sticking to my gut reaction that it's highly unlikely.
Gut reactions work for advocates of MMGW - sop stick with it.I'm sticking to my gut reaction that it's highly unlikely.
In actual fact, salinity levels of some of the water on Mars has already been checked. Obviously, only a very few samples of Martian water have been tested and the plaet has as much land surface area as earth - so there's a lot further to be found out.
Snoggledog said:
Eric Mc said:
Gut reactions work for advocates of MMGW - sop stick with it.
Easy fella. Is there any need? Really? As it happens I'm a non believer of MMGW just to set the record straight.
The word "belief" should never enter the vocabulary when discussing scientific matters.
snoggledog
you can go and read the science paper reporting the discovery here:
http://www.sciencemag.org/content/333/6043/740
this will allow you to see the evidence and then consider the authors arguments from an informed position.
if you don't have a subscription and want a copy i can email you a PDF on Monday (and anyone else who wants one)
you can go and read the science paper reporting the discovery here:
http://www.sciencemag.org/content/333/6043/740
this will allow you to see the evidence and then consider the authors arguments from an informed position.
if you don't have a subscription and want a copy i can email you a PDF on Monday (and anyone else who wants one)
as for alternative forms of life it's possible to conceive of a few. I think someone already mentioned ammonia as a solvent which has many of the key properties of water (particularly hydrogen bonding...).
I can also imagine that life could exist much more slowly in interstellar gas clouds or much more quickly in plasmas etc. who can say? Makes sense for us to look for the kind of like that would be able to recognise.
re mars it's clear that we should colonise it now, no reason not to.
I can also imagine that life could exist much more slowly in interstellar gas clouds or much more quickly in plasmas etc. who can say? Makes sense for us to look for the kind of like that would be able to recognise.
re mars it's clear that we should colonise it now, no reason not to.
Use Psychology said:
re mars it's clear that we should colonise it now, no reason not to.
I can think of three: No rocket, no money, no will.Re life, it's an egotistical trait of H sapiens to think that life will have to be based on the same things that we are, just as it was to say that the Earth was the centre of the Universe and before that, that man was made in god's image. Rumsfeld was right - we don't know what we don't know. You have to keep an open mind.
Simpo Two said:
Re life, it's an egotistical trait of H sapiens to think that life will have to be based on the same things that we are, just as it was to say that the Earth was the centre of the Universe and before that, that man was made in god's image. Rumsfeld was right - we don't know what we don't know. You have to keep an open mind.
I don't think any scientist is making such assumptions. They are merely working with what we have the most experience of, biochemistry similar to that found on Earth. We know what that looks like, so know how to look for it elsewhere. We don't have the first idea what a silicone based or ammonia or hydrocarbon based life form would look like, so it's very difficult to look for it.As I said earlier, scientists would be wasting their limited resources trying to look for life that DIDN'T metabolise in a way we currently understand because, even if they found it, they probably wouild not recognise it as "life".
It is very difficult to spot "life" remotekly (in fact, we haven't managed it yet). All we can look for are the by-products of life - essentially certain fingerprint gases in a planetary atmopshere that we associate with life. Mars does seem to have some of these gases - but we can't be sure at this moment why they are there.
It is very difficult to spot "life" remotekly (in fact, we haven't managed it yet). All we can look for are the by-products of life - essentially certain fingerprint gases in a planetary atmopshere that we associate with life. Mars does seem to have some of these gases - but we can't be sure at this moment why they are there.
black pipebandit said:
we have heavy water is there a chance this could be a new type of water..
No.Water is water - throoughout the whole universe.
That does not mean that we will not find unique forms of MUD on Mars - which will be normal water mixed up with the Mars' unique soils and the chemicals contained within them.
What needs to be done now is to replicate the surface conditions of Mars in a laboratory and see what forms of Martian like muds can flow on the surface - despite the low temperatueres and pressures.
Snoggledog said:
RobDickinson said:
You realise these shots are from over a years time and cover winter-> spring -> summer right?
And that Nasa may just have thought about the whole shadow possibility?
I guess water on Mars is as important for a mission to there as anything else. Though it still looks like a one way ticket sofar..
Yep, I do realise that. But someone at NASA seems to have forgotten that there's a lot of sand on Mars and wind speeds can reach 300 mph or thereabouts. I seriously doubt that is water but flowing sand.And that Nasa may just have thought about the whole shadow possibility?
I guess water on Mars is as important for a mission to there as anything else. Though it still looks like a one way ticket sofar..
how is it that the 'sand' stops flowing an directional manner and appears to just disappear slowly? where are the point sources of the dark dust that is being blown by the wind? I don't think sand adds up.
300mph winds on Earth would be very destructive but the atmospheric pressure is so low on mars that that kind of windspeed can't really lift much.
300mph winds on Earth would be very destructive but the atmospheric pressure is so low on mars that that kind of windspeed can't really lift much.
I live in the UAE and have spent plenty of time out in the sandy stuff.
Different mineral composition means sand can be quite a bit darker/redder (iron I assume) in certain areas. Even relatively low wind speeds can make the sand flow and move into other areas where the sand is lighter - it really does flow as water does. It then settles and slowly gets covered again by the surrounding lighter sand and it sort of disappears.
As soon as I saw the image I thought sand flow.
Different mineral composition means sand can be quite a bit darker/redder (iron I assume) in certain areas. Even relatively low wind speeds can make the sand flow and move into other areas where the sand is lighter - it really does flow as water does. It then settles and slowly gets covered again by the surrounding lighter sand and it sort of disappears.
As soon as I saw the image I thought sand flow.
Sand does not blow about easily on Mars. TYhe atmosphere is too thin to generate the energy to lift sand grains. However, DUST does lift and can cover the whole planet sometimes.
I am pretty sure the scientists trying to work out what they are seeing on Mars have explored every conceivable option as to what it is they are observing.
At the moment, a flowing mud-like salt impregnated sludge does seem to fit the best. This does not mean they are correct. Until someone or something lands down on the crater/cliff slope amd observes up close what is going on, we won't know for sure.
I am pretty sure the scientists trying to work out what they are seeing on Mars have explored every conceivable option as to what it is they are observing.
At the moment, a flowing mud-like salt impregnated sludge does seem to fit the best. This does not mean they are correct. Until someone or something lands down on the crater/cliff slope amd observes up close what is going on, we won't know for sure.
Simpo Two said:
And this is a very good demonstration of why men are better than robots. A man can pick it up and go 'Duh'. A robot cannot.
Yeah but the man looking down the camera held by the robot can go Duh, and doesn't require a multi-trillion Yen space programme to get his fragile bag of meat there.Gassing Station | Boats, Planes & Trains | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff