HMS Queen Elizabeth
Discussion
robinessex said:
Should have kept our Harrier jump jets.
What for?It was choice between axing Tornado or Harrier.........hardly a difficult choice.
The mistake was the usual UK glass-half full approach.
Should have either done carrier-air properly from the beginning, or not done it at all and used the funds for other projects/kit.
donutsina911 said:
LL have you got a link for that? Would be interested to see what kind of value they're putting on the AV8Bs..
Try this - http://www.janes.com/article/76200/turkey-seeks-to...Although that's instigated by Turkey, the US Marines seem to want to hang onto their's due to the Hornet problem - https://foxtrotalpha.jalopnik.com/u-s-marines-will...
Ayahuasca said:
Seeing as the ships are limited to STOVL, if there is a problem with the F35, it will be interesting to see what alternative use the ships can be put to. Maybe hulks to reduce prison overcrowding?
Retrofitting arrestor gear might not be as difficult to put in as catapults, so getting her into the wind and a long run up to the ramp might be enough for a Hornet, Sea Gripen or Rafale. That is the only option I think they could have.Russian example of a MiG-29K non-assisted carrier take off - https://youtu.be/1asFVjIyFfg?t=12
FourWheelDrift said:
Retrofitting arrestor gear might not be as difficult to put in as catapults, so getting her into the wind and a long run up to the ramp might be enough for a Hornet, Sea Gripen or Rafale. That is the only option I think they could have.
Russian example of a MiG-29K non-assisted carrier take off - https://youtu.be/1asFVjIyFfg?t=12
What kind of fuel/weapons payload can you get into the air like that though?Russian example of a MiG-29K non-assisted carrier take off - https://youtu.be/1asFVjIyFfg?t=12
aeropilot said:
What for?
It was choice between axing Tornado or Harrier.........hardly a difficult choice.
The mistake was the usual UK glass-half full approach.
Should have either done carrier-air properly from the beginning, or not done it at all and used the funds for other projects/kit.
OK I know this is probably a stupid question but given that we sold them for sod-all (I've no evidence for this but expect it to be true) why didn't we just mothball them? The government (of whatever colour) always seems over-keen to just bin stuff instead of keeping it in case it comes in handy.It was choice between axing Tornado or Harrier.........hardly a difficult choice.
The mistake was the usual UK glass-half full approach.
Should have either done carrier-air properly from the beginning, or not done it at all and used the funds for other projects/kit.
(Like I do, and is why I've got a garage full of junk.)
Yertis said:
OK I know this is probably a stupid question but given that we sold them for sod-all (I've no evidence for this but expect it to be true) why didn't we just mothball them? The government (of whatever colour) always seems over-keen to just bin stuff instead of keeping it in case it comes in handy.
(Like I do, and is why I've got a garage full of junk.)
If you want your 'mothballed' equipment to work again if you decide to 'unmothball' it, then it'll still need regular inspections and servicing. And that all costs money. In truth, complex aircraft, like naval ships, cannot just be left to stand with no crew and no maintenance. So the attempt to "save money" by getting rid of the Harrier fleet wouldn't have saved as much as you might think.(Like I do, and is why I've got a garage full of junk.)
To truly save money, scrapping or selling stuff like Harrier is the only option. It saved a lot in associated costs too, especially within the Harrier Support units of the Royal Engineers. It may even have played a direct part in the decision to sell off Waterbeach Barracks for housing, as that's where our airfield support units were mainly based, with a nice old runway on which to practice crater repairs, and plenty of space to exercise the troops.
Yertis said:
OK I know this is probably a stupid question but given that we sold them for sod-all (I've no evidence for this but expect it to be true) why didn't we just mothball them? The government (of whatever colour) always seems over-keen to just bin stuff instead of keeping it in case it comes in handy.
(Like I do, and is why I've got a garage full of junk.)
Cost of storage is certainly one major aspect, but more than that - if you take a type out of service then within only a few years you will also have lost the ability to maintain and operate that type too (as the personnel rotate out to different roles or leave the service). And it isn't just the aircraft that you need to keep, protect from deterioration and so on either - you also need to maintain the supplies of parts, tools and stores (as well as compatible in-service-life munitions - I believe that the Paveway IV is the only weapon that was integrated with the GR9 that we still have in the active inventory - it wasn't qualified for ASRAAM, AMRAAM, Brimstone, Storm Shadow, Meteor, etc... as far as I know. Some of our ex-forces PHers can probably give a more informed comment on that aspect though).(Like I do, and is why I've got a garage full of junk.)
So we would be paying a significant sum to keep something that couldn't be readily reactivated in short order and for which we had minimal usable weapon options. And that is before you consider the terrifying accident rates with Harriers throughout their history even when operated by fully skilled up and experienced crews. Essentially - the question becomes whether (had we kept them) we would have been able to get sufficiently more money for them from Turkey than the US paid to cover the costs incurred while they had been laid up in storage.
Edited by DiscoColin on Thursday 7th December 17:59
DiscoColin said:
it wasn't qualified for ASRAAM, AMRAAM, Brimstone, Storm Shadow, Meteor, etc... as far as I know. Some of our ex-forces PHers can probably give a more informed comment on that aspect though.
Harrier had a very limited Release to Service (RTS) for Single Mode seeker Brimstone, it had no RTS for Dual Mode seeker Brimstone, and would never have been capable of carrying Stormshadow. Nor could it carry RAPTOR (merely the SNIPER recce pod).. No point in putting AMRAAM or Meteor on it, GR7/9 lacked an air to air radar. ASRAAM was for self defence only.This left it with PAVEWAY LGBs and CRV7 unguided rockets.
DiscoColin said:
So we would be paying a significant sum to keep something that couldn't be readily reactivated in short order and for which we had minimal usable weapon options. And that is before you consider the terrifying accident rates with Harriers throughout their history even when operated by fully skilled up and experienced crews.
There was a huge difference in accident rate between the 'big wing' Harriers (ie GR5/7/9) and the earlier 'small wing' Harriers.
knut brought in a system whereby the Armed Forces have to pay to store kit they are not using. ie The Defence Budget has to pay to store things it already owns.A few from Twitter today:
God knows what the association is with JLR and the mob, but good shot...
Mahooosive cake...
Queen welcomed onboard by 1SL...
Princess Anne looking cheerful...
[url]
Queen and Cdre Jerry Kyd...
|https://thumbsnap.com/dyF35ekM[/url]
Pompey glistening in the sunshine...
Bluey replaced with the real deal...
God knows what the association is with JLR and the mob, but good shot...
Mahooosive cake...
Queen welcomed onboard by 1SL...
Princess Anne looking cheerful...
[url]Queen and Cdre Jerry Kyd...
|https://thumbsnap.com/dyF35ekM[/url]Pompey glistening in the sunshine...
Bluey replaced with the real deal...
donutsina911 said:
LL have you got a link for that? Would be interested to see what kind of value they're putting on the AV8Bs..
Here's the link to the article to which I was referring:http://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/16759/turkey-...
mikal83 said:
[url]Queen and Cdre Jerry Kyd...
Captain Kyd please
"Although Captain Kyd remains a substantive Commodore, he will follow historical custom and routinely wear the rank of Captain Royal Navy in his role as Commanding Officer of HMS Queen Elizabeth."
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