HMS Queen Elizabeth
Discussion
Nanook said:
Wildcat45 said:
When the Type 45 was in the embryonic stage of design it was going to be part of a European class of ships - French and Italian - called Horizon. The UK pulled out of the program and went its own way. The Type 45 and Horizon are if you like "cousins'. Not the same but similar.
Type 45s unusually have two wardrooms (Officers mess). One is a r and r space with TV and a small bar. Over the passage and a bit aft there's the second space which is used as a dining room. It's a hang over from Horizon where the French specified two wardrooms, one for senior officers and the other for juniors.
Evidently at the time the UK pulled out of Horizon it was not possible or cost effective to reconfigure the arrangements in that part of the ship.
This cannot be true. Not even close. Space is at that much of a premium, and internal layouts change through the design of the ship, regularly, that there's no chance they left an extra wardroom because they'd left it too long to change the layout form back before T45 was even called T45.Type 45s unusually have two wardrooms (Officers mess). One is a r and r space with TV and a small bar. Over the passage and a bit aft there's the second space which is used as a dining room. It's a hang over from Horizon where the French specified two wardrooms, one for senior officers and the other for juniors.
Evidently at the time the UK pulled out of Horizon it was not possible or cost effective to reconfigure the arrangements in that part of the ship.
For ratings it's different. Junior and senior ratings are split, and senior ratings can be split into PO and CPO messes. On invincible class carriers threre were 3 separate PO's messes, and one CPO/WO mess IIRC.
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But if you can't consolidate it into a single room (due to service or other, more vital systems space allocation) it would make sense to leave it as-is without having to redesign the whole section from scratch.If you had an infinite budget, maybe, but not if resources are tight.
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I can only go on the information I was given when I spent a week at sea with a Type 45. I know where you are coming from and had I not been told it from one of the command team - who knew that as a journalist I would be writing about my experience - I would have had my doubts.
There is a lot of empty space in a '45. A very tall gym for example. A space big enough to accommodate strike length tubes for future weapons.
Going off topic but if you have been in a daring after spending time in something like a Type 42 or even a 22 the difference is amazing. There's more space all over the shop. My cabin - which was the flight commander's cabin normally was about the same size as the 'posh' cabins I've used on 3-Deck in an invincible
Wildcat45 said:
Nanook said:
This cannot be true. Not even close. Space is at that much of a premium, and internal layouts change through the design of the ship, regularly, that there's no chance they left an extra wardroom because they'd left it too long to change the layout form back before T45 was even called T45.
I can only go on the information I was given when I spent a week at sea with a Type 45. I know where you are coming from and had I not been told it from one of the command team - who knew that as a journalist I would be writing about my experience - I would have had my doubts.
There is a lot of empty space in a '45. A very tall gym for example. A space big enough to accommodate strike length tubes for future weapons.
Going off topic but if you have been in a daring after spending time in something like a Type 42 or even a 22 the difference is amazing. There's more space all over the shop. My cabin - which was the flight commander's cabin normally was about the same size as the 'posh' cabins I've used on 3-Deck in an invincible
You can guarantee if they need somewhere to dump a capacitor for a focused energy weapon they'll be looking at all those spare rooms...
Wildcat45 said:
There is a lot of empty space in a '45. A very tall gym for example. A space big enough to accommodate strike length tubes for future weapons.
Going off topic but if you have been in a daring after spending time in something like a Type 42 or even a 22 the difference is amazing. There's more space all over the shop. My cabin - which was the flight commander's cabin normally was about the same size as the 'posh' cabins I've used on 3-Deck in an invincible
Maybe the T45 is worth a thread of its own, but whilst they may have a lot of space for "growth margin" etc, the internal re-configuration required for the installation of the "Power Improvement Programme" (Project Napier) will be a bit of a pig.Going off topic but if you have been in a daring after spending time in something like a Type 42 or even a 22 the difference is amazing. There's more space all over the shop. My cabin - which was the flight commander's cabin normally was about the same size as the 'posh' cabins I've used on 3-Deck in an invincible
Basically the internal machinery spaces where there are currently 2 x 2MW Diesel Generators have to be re-configured to house 3 x 3 MW Diesel Generators to help overcome the power deficiency problems. Even the "growth margin" was not designed for that eventuality and a number of internal spaces will have to be changed round to both accommodate the new machinery space and the associated equipment, but also to allow additional and bigger machinery removal routes out to new and bigger "soft patches". Not beyond the "whit of man" but tricky, expensive and time-consuming none the less.
To bring this back to the QEC - there is a reason why the QEC was purposely designed not to have the WR21 Gas Turbine engine. Some in the MoD and industry were pushing for it at the design stage but, thankfully, wiser heads prevailed!
Wildcat45 said:
QEC has MT30s is that right? Unlike the WR21, they are used by other navies. I think one of the LCS used them. Not using WR21 was a good choice as it's almost like an orphan design.
The '45s should have gone with something mature like the LM2500 - like the Horizons.
The decision on the '45s was based predominantly on fuel burn - and ended up being a classic example of a very demanding specification leading to a more complex, expensive, niche product.The '45s should have gone with something mature like the LM2500 - like the Horizons.
Evanivitch said:
Wildcat45 said:
Nanook said:
This cannot be true. Not even close. Space is at that much of a premium, and internal layouts change through the design of the ship, regularly, that there's no chance they left an extra wardroom because they'd left it too long to change the layout form back before T45 was even called T45.
I can only go on the information I was given when I spent a week at sea with a Type 45. I know where you are coming from and had I not been told it from one of the command team - who knew that as a journalist I would be writing about my experience - I would have had my doubts.
There is a lot of empty space in a '45. A very tall gym for example. A space big enough to accommodate strike length tubes for future weapons.
Going off topic but if you have been in a daring after spending time in something like a Type 42 or even a 22 the difference is amazing. There's more space all over the shop. My cabin - which was the flight commander's cabin normally was about the same size as the 'posh' cabins I've used on 3-Deck in an invincible
You can guarantee if they need somewhere to dump a capacitor for a focused energy weapon they'll be looking at all those spare rooms...
Mave said:
The decision on the '45s was based predominantly on fuel burn - and ended up being a classic example of a very demanding specification leading to a more complex, expensive, niche product.
The decision on the '45s was based predominantly on lobbying by RR and individual factions within the MoD who had made their career researching and promoting the "electric ship".One or other of the WR21 in the T45 was meant to operate at optimum state 100% of the time with the Diesel Generators (DGs) only being used for start up, emergency and auxiliary power. However, the WR21 did not have the reliability to operate like that and now has to be used more like a traditional Gas Turbine in a ship with the DGs providing power for propulsion that they were not designed to do. On top of this, the cooling system wasn't robust enough and hence the power failures, and hence the need to beef up the DG system with 3 new bigger DGs replacing the 2 existing smaller ones.
The fact that the USA (Westinghouse) decided to withdraw from the development project because they thought it was too complex should probably have told the MoD all they needed to know about the viability of the engine.
Fortunately, other factions within the MoD, and particularly within the QEC design team, realized that the technical risks associated with the WR21were too great and did not out weigh the supposed benefits. They opted not to use the WR21.
andy97 said:
Mave said:
The decision on the '45s was based predominantly on fuel burn - and ended up being a classic example of a very demanding specification leading to a more complex, expensive, niche product.
The decision on the '45s was based predominantly on lobbying by RR and individual factions within the MoD who had made their career researching and promoting the "electric ship".Wildcat45 said:
I remember RN friends about 20 years ago talking about an intercooler Spey. Were they talking about the WR21?
Another question. Are the QEC's MR30s marinised Trents?
The MT30s are marinised derivatives of the Trent 800, with no fan (or LPC to replace it) and an aero / industrial Trent hybrid LP turbine.Another question. Are the QEC's MR30s marinised Trents?
Wildcat45 said:
AshVX220 said:
A little bit of info to the above, all 6 T45's are unique, there are no two the same in the entire class. Due to the subtle changes and mods that took place during the project.
I think the last three are technically Batch 2 because of he changes. Is that right?Gassing Station | Boats, Planes & Trains | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff