What will the Government buy if the F35 is cancelled?
Discussion
motomk said:
aeropilot said:
No, as per my post above.
Actually, thinking about it, the new P-8's are probably USN spec, so will be hose n drogue as well if they have AAR capability.....would need to look that up.
Boom for the P8. Likewise the Wedgetail. Actually, thinking about it, the new P-8's are probably USN spec, so will be hose n drogue as well if they have AAR capability.....would need to look that up.
Edited by aeropilot on Tuesday 12th May 15:45
Evanivitch said:
frodo_monkey said:
Ah contraire, pretty much everybody agrees we should buy -A models!
And the Army want Chally 3, WCSP, MIV, MRVP PT 1 and pt 2, Strike155 and a new rifle.They should never have been given the useless one that they were given 30 years ago.
aeropilot said:
And the last item on that list is the most important item.
They should never have been given the useless one that they were given 30 years ago
A2 has served well, and A3 is a good rifle. But the fact is the septics use something different and so do the SF, so it'll never be good enough.They should never have been given the useless one that they were given 30 years ago
Evanivitch said:
aeropilot said:
And the last item on that list is the most important item.
They should never have been given the useless one that they were given 30 years ago
A2 has served well, and A3 is a good rifle. But the fact is the septics use something different and so do the SF, so it'll never be good enough.They should never have been given the useless one that they were given 30 years ago
Johnnybee said:
Can't the RAF E3 use the hose and drogue? Not trying to point score, just interested.
It would appear so........so strike that from the list.However.............MOD have signed a preliminary deal with Boeing to buy the E-7 Wedgetail as a replacement for the E-3D fleet, while saying they have no need of boom tankers
but the E-7 can only use a boom AAR system, so you can add the E-7 to the 'in the future' list.The Aussies, while having the same A330 MRT as the RAF Voyager's, but being half sensible, ordered their A330 MRT's with the dual AAR kit fit, having hose n drogue fit on the wings, and boom system in the tail.
RizzoTheRat said:
I used to work with the SO2 that did a load of the acceptance testing for the A2. He'd get a bit grumpy when people slagged the SA80 off, the A2 incorporated a load of mods that apparently put it's reliability well ahead of most of the competition. One of the biggest issues with A1 was actually the magazine not the rifle itself. They were quite easy to dent, which would then cause a jam.
And they were too easy to release!The A2 is still too heavy, doesn't use a real round, too fussy to clean, the wrong colour, right hand only, crap sights, can't shoot around corners, muzzle brake too small to pleasure a man but too big to ignore.
Evanivitch said:
And they were too easy to release!
The A2 is still too heavy, doesn't use a real round, too fussy to clean, the wrong colour, right hand only, crap sights, can't shoot around corners, muzzle brake too small to pleasure a man but too big to ignore.
How recently have you used one? The ACOG sight that replaced the SUSAT did away with the silly spike meaning you could see what you were shooting at. and that has since been replaced by something else but I've not used the new one.The A2 is still too heavy, doesn't use a real round, too fussy to clean, the wrong colour, right hand only, crap sights, can't shoot around corners, muzzle brake too small to pleasure a man but too big to ignore.
Right hand only is just a barking idea though, and I agree they're heavy, it would be even heavier if it used 7.62 though.
Can any rifle shoot round corners? I know there's a few mounts for handguns to do it, and we trailed a remote camera sight on the SA80 to allow shooting round corners or overhead but even a Queens Medal holder reckoned it was nearly impossible to hit anything like that, took way too long to bring it on to target and the second shot was a lot worse due to lack of control of the recoil.
Edited by RizzoTheRat on Wednesday 13th May 14:52
RizzoTheRat said:
How recently have you used one? The ACOG sight that replaced the SUSAT did away with the silly spike meaning you could see what you were shooting at. and that has since been replaced by something else but I've not used the new one.
Right hand only is just a barking idea though, and I agree they're heavy, it would be even heavier if it used 7.62 though.
Can any rifle shoot round corners? I know there's a few mounts for handguns to do it, and we trailed a remote camera sight on the SA80 to allow shooting round corners or overhead but even a Queens Medal holder reckoned it was nearly impossible to hit anything like that, took way too long to bring it on to target and the second shot was a lot worse due to lack of control of the recoil.
It was a list of common excuses, I'm all for it. Not had hands on A3 yet.Right hand only is just a barking idea though, and I agree they're heavy, it would be even heavier if it used 7.62 though.
Can any rifle shoot round corners? I know there's a few mounts for handguns to do it, and we trailed a remote camera sight on the SA80 to allow shooting round corners or overhead but even a Queens Medal holder reckoned it was nearly impossible to hit anything like that, took way too long to bring it on to target and the second shot was a lot worse due to lack of control of the recoil.
Edited by RizzoTheRat on Wednesday 13th May 14:52
Look up krummlauf.
Evanivitch said:
RizzoTheRat said:
I used to work with the SO2 that did a load of the acceptance testing for the A2. He'd get a bit grumpy when people slagged the SA80 off, the A2 incorporated a load of mods that apparently put it's reliability well ahead of most of the competition. One of the biggest issues with A1 was actually the magazine not the rifle itself. They were quite easy to dent, which would then cause a jam.
And they were too easy to release!
Not to further devolve the thread away from F-35 but after using the L85A1-A2 for 20 years (very sparingly TBH) and then, after leaving, putting about 500 rounds through an AR-15 variant visiting a mate in the US I thought I'd add this -
The SA80 family had 3 main problems baked into the original design - weight, ergonomics and reliability - and the A2 finally cured reliability completely, but despite being a billion times better now the basic weapons design is still flawed regarding weight and ergonomics and those can't ever be "fixed" without significant issues and cost.
In comparison the AR design also had reliability issues at the very start of their life (*see below) but, once that was cured, because the rest of the design was so great it's still probably considered now to be the "best" current rifle and why so many militaries, police etc buy them. Also TBH, unless you've actually fired one, it's hard to understand why the AR platforms ergonomics and reduced weight make such a massive improvement to shooting/handling over the A1-A2 series I'd used previously. I mean just having a nice and light rifle with all the controls at your fingertips/thumb is vastly superior to the SA80 family.
There's a book coming out out next year by Headstamp which covers the Thornycroft to SA80 series of UK bullpups which I'm getting after buying into their Kickstarter (made $580k!!!) and I've been watching the Forgotten Weapons Youtube channel who are involved in the book and their own videos on the history of the SA80 design is eye-opening!
The SA80 family had 3 main problems baked into the original design - weight, ergonomics and reliability - and the A2 finally cured reliability completely, but despite being a billion times better now the basic weapons design is still flawed regarding weight and ergonomics and those can't ever be "fixed" without significant issues and cost.
In comparison the AR design also had reliability issues at the very start of their life (*see below) but, once that was cured, because the rest of the design was so great it's still probably considered now to be the "best" current rifle and why so many militaries, police etc buy them. Also TBH, unless you've actually fired one, it's hard to understand why the AR platforms ergonomics and reduced weight make such a massive improvement to shooting/handling over the A1-A2 series I'd used previously. I mean just having a nice and light rifle with all the controls at your fingertips/thumb is vastly superior to the SA80 family.
There's a book coming out out next year by Headstamp which covers the Thornycroft to SA80 series of UK bullpups which I'm getting after buying into their Kickstarter (made $580k!!!) and I've been watching the Forgotten Weapons Youtube channel who are involved in the book and their own videos on the history of the SA80 design is eye-opening!
- -Early M-16 reliability issues - mainly due to an "undocumented" powder change to the ammunition so not Armalites fault or a design issue.
I don't understand why we haven't planned to move to an AR15 derivative instead of having to keep updating the same design again.
The A1/A2 debacle is well known, and it's still not very flexible on terms of customisation, and not ambidextrous.
Yet the AR15 is the most popular platform around these days, and the market for accessories and customisation is huge.
But yeah, Ian at forgotten weapons puts it much better than I could, and the book looks really interesting.
The A1/A2 debacle is well known, and it's still not very flexible on terms of customisation, and not ambidextrous.
Yet the AR15 is the most popular platform around these days, and the market for accessories and customisation is huge.
But yeah, Ian at forgotten weapons puts it much better than I could, and the book looks really interesting.
Worth reading this thread about the SA80, given the contributions on the thread by Peter Laider.
https://www.milsurps.com/showthread.php?t=60999&am...
It still is astonishing though given the amount of plastic used on the damn thing that it is 'only' 80g lighter than the SLR it replaced, given the differences in length between the two of them.
https://www.milsurps.com/showthread.php?t=60999&am...
It still is astonishing though given the amount of plastic used on the damn thing that it is 'only' 80g lighter than the SLR it replaced, given the differences in length between the two of them.
aeropilot said:
Evanivitch said:
RizzoTheRat said:
I used to work with the SO2 that did a load of the acceptance testing for the A2. He'd get a bit grumpy when people slagged the SA80 off, the A2 incorporated a load of mods that apparently put it's reliability well ahead of most of the competition. One of the biggest issues with A1 was actually the magazine not the rifle itself. They were quite easy to dent, which would then cause a jam.
And they were too easy to release!
Krikkit said:
I don't understand why we haven't planned to move to an AR15 derivative instead of having to keep updating the same design again.
A mixture of national pride, keeping a UK business going and overal "projected" cost. However since that time and with different capabilities wanted, the Royal Marines as part of their restructuring are now are joining the SF types in getting Canadian versions of the AR called the Diemaco (or Colt Canada) C8 to replace the SA80 family after a very successful 3 year trial by 43 Commando.Plus the SA80's got a free floating barrel, and longer barrel than the M16, so more accurate and longer range in a shorter package.
Or course there's some debate on how beneficial long range accuracy is most current operations, hence the longer barrelled LSW not being particularly popular, although they're brought in the 7.62 sharpshooter so who knows.
Or course there's some debate on how beneficial long range accuracy is most current operations, hence the longer barrelled LSW not being particularly popular, although they're brought in the 7.62 sharpshooter so who knows.
IanH755 said:
Krikkit said:
I don't understand why we haven't planned to move to an AR15 derivative instead of having to keep updating the same design again.
A mixture of national pride, keeping a UK business going and overal "projected" cost. hidetheelephants said:
IIRC the solution to this involved a strip of sheet steel bent into a u-shape and blob-welded onto the outside, preventing the release button being inadvertently pressed as you slog along with the weapon slung; truly a masterpiece of the gunsmith's art...
Fascinating video about all the differences https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=js4d8c7KzCQ
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