Crash at Shoreham Air show

[anonymous-user]

steve-5snwi said:

Will this be a first for a pilot being charged with manslaughter and if so what implications does this have ?

Not quite manslaughter but try Googling "Chinook crash Mull of Kintyre"
Can open, worms everywhere.

Edited by anonymous-user on Thursday 22 March 15:02

[saaby93]

Crossflow Kid said:

dr_gn said:

saaby93 said:

This video shows you can be under 500ft on takeoff or for a low pass
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cECmbme_UKs
Looks crazy to me.............

Yet that pilot is often referred to (by both fellow pilots and enthusiasts) as being "legendary".

I guess these type of guys are always needing to impress, and are always one preventable accident away from being a dhead.

Indeed.
There are old pilots and bold pilots. Not both.
And not every legend has a happy ending.

tribute on this one
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4iOoiEbtf2w

This popped up too
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U2QxQOClCLw
There's a delta wing at about 1:29

Edited by saaby93 on Thursday 22 March 14:50

[aeropilot]

Crossflow Kid said:

dr_gn said:

saaby93 said:

This video shows you can be under 500ft on takeoff or for a low pass
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cECmbme_UKs
Looks crazy to me.............

Yet that pilot is often referred to (by both fellow pilots and enthusiasts) as being "legendary".

I guess these type of guys are always needing to impress, and are always one preventable accident away from being a dhead.

Indeed.
There are old pilots and bold pilots. Not both.

Ray was old and skilful, through decades of training, not old and bold.
And he died in old age of natural causes, not in a cockpit in a hole in the ground, so again, using Ray as any form of comparison to AH is rather pointless, especially as Ray hadn't display flown a high performance jet since leaving the RAF in 1971.

Any comparisons should be like for like, i.e with any other current Hunter display pilots at the time of the incident.

Edited by aeropilot on Thursday 22 March 15:10

[saaby93]

aeropilot said:

Any comparisons should be like for like, i.e with any other current Hunter display pilots at the time of the incident.

it's nothing to do with finding comparisons
It's to try to stop people harping on about 500ft as if somehow flying below 500ft youre automatically going to crash
The 500ft wasn't the issue or 370ft according to reports- it was not having enough height at the top of the manouevre, or not enough power at the bottom later.
You could see it as it was over the trees, the pilot trying to find that middle ground between pulling the stick back and stalling or having enough forward motion to gain lift. If he'd had a few more feet in height we wouldnt be in this thread.

So why did he peak out at 2700ft and not the 3500ft the AAIB say theyd expect?

[aeropilot]

saaby93 said:

it's nothing to do with finding comparisons
It's to try to stop people harping on about 500ft as if somehow flying below 500ft youre automatically going to crash
The 500ft wasn't the issue or 370ft according to reports- it was not having enough height at the top of the manouevre, or not enough power at the bottom later.
You could see it as it was over the trees, the pilot trying to find that middle ground between pulling the stick back and stalling or having enough forward motion to gain lift. If he'd had a few more feet in height we wouldnt be in this thread.

So why did he peak out at 2700ft and not the 3500ft the AAIB say theyd expect?

Indeed, as has been pointed out numerous times on here.......he could come whistling in 15ft AGL at 500knts and throttle rammed forward all the way up, and he would have been likely higher than 3,500ft as the energy and power going up would have ensured a much bugger arch in the sky......and thus likely he would have been OK on the way down provided the bit coming back down was handed correctly.

He didn't, he came in lower, but to slow, with not enough power on the way up, so was then too low at gate height to be able to pull through in the height remaining. Power on the way down or at the bottom was going to make diddly squat to save that situation once he pulled through and continued down from that point/speed.
As suggested, his mind for speed and heights etc was maybe momentarily in JP mode, not Hunter mode.........what was a few seconds, if that, of miscalculation ended in horrible tragedy for many people.

[saaby93]

aeropilot said:

Indeed, as has been pointed out numerous times on here.......he could come whistling in 15ft AGL at 500knts and throttle rammed forward all the way up, and he would have been likely higher than 3,500ft as the energy and power going up would have ensured a much bugger arch in the sky......and thus likely he would have been OK on the way down provided the bit coming back down was handed correctly.

He didn't, he came in lower, but to slow, with not enough power on the way up, so was then too low at gate height to be able to pull through in the height remaining. Power on the way down or at the bottom was going to make diddly squat to save that situation once he pulled through and continued down from that point/speed.
As suggested, his mind for speed and heights etc was maybe momentarily in JP mode, not Hunter mode.........what was a few seconds, if that, of miscalculation ended in horrible tragedy for many people.

I cant see anything there to argue with

[JuniorD]

I would like to hear this man answer the question why he commenced the manoeuvre so low. I don't know about everyone else, but I've never felt that doing aerobatics at low altitudes adds anything to the spectacle.

[anonymous-user]

JuniorD said:

I would like to hear this man answer the question why he commenced the manoeuvre so low.

I just want to hear him say something about the crash.

Anything.

As far as I'm aware he has never given any kind of public statement or said anything about the incident?

I would be very interested to hear his answers to questions in court.

[Robertj21a]

Lord Marylebone said:

I just want to hear him say something about the crash.

Anything.

As far as I'm aware he has never given any kind of public statement or said anything about the incident?

I would be very interested to hear his answers to questions in court.

I assume that he will probably claim that he doesn't recall any detail at all.

[saaby93]

Robertj21a said:

Lord Marylebone said:

I just want to hear him say something about the crash.

Anything.

As far as I'm aware he has never given any kind of public statement or said anything about the incident?

I would be very interested to hear his answers to questions in court.

I assume that he will probably claim that he doesn't recall any detail at all.

Hes already said that
'Mr Hill, of Sandon, Herts, said he had no memory of the tragedy despite cockpit footage showing he was alert at the time.'
Stuff in the short term memory is the first to go in a trauma before it's archived

[saaby93]

aeropilot said:

Ray was old and skilful, through decades of training,

If the camera is at 6 feet how high is the plane

[mattyn1]

Lord Marylebone said:

JuniorD said:

I would like to hear this man answer the question why he commenced the manoeuvre so low.

I just want to hear him say something about the crash.

Anything.

As far as I'm aware he has never given any kind of public statement or said anything about the incident?

I would be very interested to hear his answers to questions in court.

Agree to hearing the court answers. But without STBO if he made a genuine mistake rather than be wilfully negligent it can’t be the easiest thing to make public statements post this.
Do we know when the court case will be?

[anonymous-user]

saaby93 said:

Hes already said that
'Mr Hill, of Sandon, Herts, said he had no memory of the tragedy despite cockpit footage showing he was alert at the time.'
Stuff in the short term memory is the first to go in a trauma before it's archived

How convenient.

[bitchstewie]

From what I've read and heard I'm not sure this is too much of a surprising decision.

I recall earlier in the thread there seemed a bit of a mentality that an air accident can't be a persons fault but presumably on the balance of evidence so far there's a belief it could be.

[saaby93]

bhstewie said:

From what I've read and heard I'm not sure this is too much of a surprising decision.

I recall earlier in the thread there seemed a bit of a mentality that an air accident can't be a persons fault but presumably on the balance of evidence so far there's a belief it could be.

I dont remember anyone ssaying that
Of course it can be someone's fault
Everyone makes mistakes so if you dont want other people to repeat the same mistake, you have to get to the bottom of what led to the mistake.
If just about anyone else in the same situation would end up doing the same thing, it'll be difficult to say it's their fault

[Robertj21a]

saaby93 said:

dont remember anyone ssaying that
Of course it can be someone's fault
Everyone makes mistakes so if you dont want other people to repeat the same mistake, you have to get to the bottom of what led to the mistake.
If just about anyone else in the same situation would end up doing the same thing, it'll be difficult to say it's their fault

I'm not going to trawl back to the earliest comments but I'm sure I got the impression from other posters that there was little chance of it being pilot error as he was "so skilled, and well respected".
It came over, to me, as most likely to be anyone, or everyone else, but unlikely to be the pilot.
Good to see some truth coming through at last.

[bitchstewie]

saaby93 said:

bhstewie said:

From what I've read and heard I'm not sure this is too much of a surprising decision.

I recall earlier in the thread there seemed a bit of a mentality that an air accident can't be a persons fault but presumably on the balance of evidence so far there's a belief it could be.

I dont remember anyone ssaying that
Of course it can be someone's fault
Everyone makes mistakes so if you dont want other people to repeat the same mistake, you have to get to the bottom of what led to the mistake.
If just about anyone else in the same situation would end up doing the same thing, it'll be difficult to say it's their fault

It's my perception, maybe I read it wrong but to me there was a tone that, to paraphrase "We need to learn from this and prosecuting people doesn't help".

Whilst I've no desire to see people be made scapegoats the way some of it came across left a bit of a bad taste.

[BrabusMog]

bhstewie said:

saaby93 said:

bhstewie said:

From what I've read and heard I'm not sure this is too much of a surprising decision.

I recall earlier in the thread there seemed a bit of a mentality that an air accident can't be a persons fault but presumably on the balance of evidence so far there's a belief it could be.

I dont remember anyone ssaying that
Of course it can be someone's fault
Everyone makes mistakes so if you dont want other people to repeat the same mistake, you have to get to the bottom of what led to the mistake.
If just about anyone else in the same situation would end up doing the same thing, it'll be difficult to say it's their fault

It's my perception, maybe I read it wrong but to me there was a tone that, to paraphrase "We need to learn from this and prosecuting people doesn't help".

Whilst I've no desire to see people be made scapegoats the way some of it came across left a bit of a bad taste.

If you knew a victim and read some of the stuff spouted on this thread you'd not be happy. There are/were some incredibly crass posters on this thread, including the one in quote here who said the people who died aren't victims.

[saaby93]

bhstewie said:

saaby93 said:

bhstewie said:

From what I've read and heard I'm not sure this is too much of a surprising decision.

I recall earlier in the thread there seemed a bit of a mentality that an air accident can't be a persons fault but presumably on the balance of evidence so far there's a belief it could be.

I dont remember anyone ssaying that
Of course it can be someone's fault
Everyone makes mistakes so if you dont want other people to repeat the same mistake, you have to get to the bottom of what led to the mistake.
If just about anyone else in the same situation would end up doing the same thing, it'll be difficult to say it's their fault

It's my perception, maybe I read it wrong but to me there was a tone that, to paraphrase "We need to learn from this and prosecuting people doesn't help".

thats a different issue
Because incidence of air crashes is so low but the outcome so serious, you need everyone involved to be as open as possible about what happened
There's little point in trying to prosecute someone so they clam up and a different pilot or whatever, makes the same mistake a year later.
Usually if relatives undertand that, they welcome that openness especially if it leads to a change in practice that prevents others reaching the same fate.

[BrabusMog]

saaby93 said:

hats a different issue
Because incidence of air crashes is so low but the outcome so serious, you need everyone involved to be as open as possible about what happened
There's little point in trying to prosecute someone so they clam up and a different pilot or whatever, makes the same mistake a year later.
Usually if relatives undertand that, they welcome that openness especially if it leads to a change in practice that prevents others reaching the same fate.

You really are a piece of work.