How to fix the Southern Rail dispute?

[Chrisgr31]

RemyMartin81D said:

I guess the magic money tree can fix all the issues with maintenance on the track etc tbh count yourself lucky they don't raise revenue to truly cover their costs otherwise there would be even more frothing than usual.

Railways are at bursting point , however as a side point Southern drivers have let them selves down massively, by constantly banging the it's not money it's the safety drum and then accepting it when the pay rise is right you've made drivers look like the feckless idiots the media want us to be. Most of my GWR colleagues I've spoken to think Southern drivers are aholes given we have a few southern drivers in the mess at Reading occasionally I had heard some fracas between the two.

My personal opinion is ditto to the ahole comment. Sadly that is ASLEF all over, makes out it's good and really they are s who want to line their pockets, sometimes I think I should be In RMT.....lol just as bad tbh

As a matter of interest what should ASLEF have done? Plenty of Southern drivers were driving DOO before the dispute, and of course there was the knowledge of routes transferring over to Thameslink which is DOO.

Personally I fail to understand why 2 members of staff arent required on a train. An incident might be unlikely but when they happen the more staff around the better

[RemyMartin81D]

Chrisgr31 said:

As a matter of interest what should ASLEF have done? Plenty of Southern drivers were driving DOO before the dispute, and of course there was the knowledge of routes transferring over to Thameslink which is DOO.

Personally I fail to understand why 2 members of staff arent required on a train. An incident might be unlikely but when they happen the more staff around the better

I agree on the 2 staff argument, even though myself I mainly drive DOO (p) but capitulating as soon as the money was right and not having RMT at those talks just smacks of im alright jack.

We have one good ASLEF rep the rest I wouldn't say they were anything decent, some are OK mainly firebrands who do it just to stick it to management. (I don't necessarily have an issue with that lol)

[Nik da Greek]

tight5 said:

Nik da Greek said:

Christ no. I do have some principles, I wouldn't like to sell all of them out

Sit and complain, not prepared to do anything.
Super.

Sorry, so your argument is pretty much that if I object to the fact that the local union is run by the reps for the reps, that they are self-serving and utterly disinterested in the requirements of their electorate, that they are corrupt and domesticated by management, that they exploit every avenue available to ignore due democratic process to ensure their own tenure lasts in defiance of the avowed intent of the membership, that they are so divorced from grassroots feelings that they recommend pay deals that 80% majorities then reject...if I object to all these things then the only thing I can do about it is to stand for election myself? What century are you in?

I pay a fktonne of money to have my say in this union, I do not expect to be silenced or marginalised and I certainly don't expect the most puerile argument in politics to be aimed at me "Well, you can't do any better. Prove it!" I left the playground quite a few years ago and have no desire to return.I think it's clear that you have no idea how corrupt and ignorant the running of the union is down here on the southern patch, or how much seething resentment is felt towards the reps who swan about, frankly, like their st don't stink and the membership are beneath their dignity

However much I objected to the way in which Robert Mugabe ran the country of Zimbabwe, I never felt obliged to seek citizenship and run in a presidential election in order to feel my viewpoint was validated. In much the same way, I pay membership of a union that claims equality and fraternity for all. I therefore reserve the right to express my opinion about it, and my opinion is as valid as the next man, the reps, yours, or Mick bloody Whelan's, thanks

[frankenstein12]

Ok so what this all boils down to is gross mismanagement by all parties involved. The train companies. The Union reps. Network rail.

Upgrade and maintenance work not being done either to time or budget. Train companies stock and facilities not being properly maintained or upgraded and where it is the work is being done roughshod and over budget and under schedule.

This in turn means the train companies trying to find efficiency savings in staffing to make up their margins.

Nothing new. I am coming to realise that ineptitude is a key element in business both public and private sector. I have contracted into the civil service for many many years and have long lamented their ineptitude and waste.

Now the company I contract to who provide my services to the civil service were bought out by a multi billion pound global corporate a year or two ago who have integrated the original company into their systems and they are mindblowingly inefficient and inept as well.

[tight5]

Nik da Greek said:

Sorry, so your argument is pretty much that if I object to the fact that the local union is run by the reps for the reps, that they are self-serving and utterly disinterested in the requirements of their electorate, that they are corrupt and domesticated by management, that they exploit every avenue available to ignore due democratic process to ensure their own tenure lasts in defiance of the avowed intent of the membership, that they are so divorced from grassroots feelings that they recommend pay deals that 80% majorities then reject...if I object to all these things then the only thing I can do about it is to stand for election myself? What century are you in?

I pay a fktonne of money to have my say in this union, I do not expect to be silenced or marginalised and I certainly don't expect the most puerile argument in politics to be aimed at me "Well, you can't do any better. Prove it!" I left the playground quite a few years ago and have no desire to return.I think it's clear that you have no idea how corrupt and ignorant the running of the union is down here on the southern patch, or how much seething resentment is felt towards the reps who swan about, frankly, like their st don't stink and the membership are beneath their dignity

However much I objected to the way in which Robert Mugabe ran the country of Zimbabwe, I never felt obliged to seek citizenship and run in a presidential election in order to feel my viewpoint was validated. In much the same way, I pay membership of a union that claims equality and fraternity for all. I therefore reserve the right to express my opinion about it, and my opinion is as valid as the next man, the reps, yours, or Mick bloody Whelan's, thanks

Whilst I agree with SOME of your points, how do you expect to change your reps attitude ?

l have no direct knowledge of your situation, or SR or passenger work.
l have been VERY critical of ASLEF.
BUT I did stand for election, I DO work for my workmates and would NEVER be like your reps.

Stand for a reps position and get things changed ?
Or let them keep going as they are now ?

WTF has Zimbabwe got to do with this ?

[V8 Fettler]

anonymous said:

[redacted]

Lack of competition = captive market = minimal incentive to improve performance. Railway passengers should have little interest in disputes between employer and employee, the system should just work.

[Chrisgr31]

frankenstein12 said:

Ok so what this all boils down to is gross mismanagement by all parties involved. The train companies. The Union reps. Network rail.

Need to add the DFT to that list particularly for Southern. After all they took a franschise which was one of the few making a positive return covering all costs including track costs. They tender the management contract, and make it a requirement to introduce DOO which they know the unions wont like and will strike over. They then stand up at a public meeting in Croydon and say that they will drive the unions out of the railway.

Its no surprise that the strikes follow. Those strikes lead to a loss of revenue of around £60m per annum for 2 years, which far exceeds the savings from DOO even in the medium term.

Not only that but the strikes are still not resolved and I suspect more trouble in the New Year after the ASLEF agreement actually comes in to effect, when we get to see if Southern have enough OBS to honour the agreement.

Its quite incredible that the DfT can just find the money to fund this dispute without any politician asking questions.

[Chrisgr31]

RemyMartin81D said:

I agree on the 2 staff argument, even though myself I mainly drive DOO (p) but capitulating as soon as the money was right and not having RMT at those talks just smacks of im alright jack.

Surely the reality was there was no point having the RMT at the talks? The rhetoric from the RMT made/makes it plain they are not going to settle or find a compromise in this dispute. The RMT handling of the whole dispute has been a shambles and cost their members a fortune for what?

I you think back to the start of the dispute the first thing that happened was Southern took ASLEF to court and argued successfully that the agreement that they had on DOO on the BML mainline was not worth the paper it was written on. They then spent their time challenging ALEFs ballot until ASLEF had all their ducks in a roww.

The RMT should have been waiting for ASLEF to sort out their issues as the driver strikes are much more effective than the guard ones. The RMT should also have been instructing their members to show their worth, not just on doors, but also in customer information, ticket checking etc. Passengers might have had more sympathy if the RMT had publicised their role more.

Southern and the DFT kept saying it was about closing doors, and yes thats one bit of it, but guards should be doing a lot more, and as I said one important role must be in the case of an emergency.

[NDA]

tight5 said:

WTF has Zimbabwe got to do with this ?

Merely to illustrate the point that it is possible to have a view on a situation without being told to take office.

Unfortunately, as this thread has shown, it's very difficult to express a point of view without being shouted down or told you're ignorant, or, indeed, both.

[tight5]

NDA said:

Merely to illustrate the point that it is possible to have a view on a situation without being told to take office.

Unfortunately, as this thread has shown, it's very difficult to express a point of view without being shouted down or told you're ignorant, or, indeed, both.

He is in ASLEF, he's not in Zimbabwe !

[Nik da Greek]

tight5 said:

NDA said:

Merely to illustrate the point that it is possible to have a view on a situation without being told to take office.

Unfortunately, as this thread has shown, it's very difficult to express a point of view without being shouted down or told you're ignorant, or, indeed, both.

He is in ASLEF, he's not in Zimbabwe !

Exactly as NDA said, just a comparison example. And Zimbabwe seemed an apposite one as our LDC reps used to be nicknamed Mugabe and Tsvangirai due to the way they did their deals

[legzr1]

NDA said:

Unfortunately, as this thread has shown, it's very difficult to express a point of view without being shouted down or told you're ignorant, or, indeed, both.

I predicted a month ago that you'd add precisely nothing to this thread, nothing of substance barring a whinge about being 'shouted down'.

And here we are, nothing added and another whinge.

Come on, say something that can't be shown as absolute folly.


As for internal Union politics - as a member you're entitled to air your views and your opinion is worth as much as anyone's.
But, there comes a time when the only way to change what you think is wrong is to step up.

Some do, some don't.

[Robertj21a]

Why don't more members stand for election ?

[legzr1]

Because it's not as easy as some seem to think and can be a thankless task most days.

[tight5]

legzr1 said:

Because it's not as easy as some seem to think and can be a thankless task most days.

Most days ?

[Stedman]

RemyMartin81D said:

Railways are at bursting point , however as a side point Southern drivers have let them selves down massively, by constantly banging the it's not money it's the safety drum and then accepting it when the pay rise is right you've made drivers look like the feckless idiots the media want us to be. Most of my GWR colleagues I've spoken to think Southern drivers are aholes given we have a few southern drivers in the mess at Reading occasionally I had heard some fracas between the two.

Quite unfair, although I do understand the argument. SN dvrs were backed into a corner and had a nasty battle over 18 months

[RemyMartin81D]

Unfair but what the industry thinks about it.