Random facts about planes..
Discussion
Shakermaker said:
nonsequitur said:
Gandahar said:
HoHoHo said:
2. One the most deadly airplane accidents actually happened on the ground. In 1977, two fully loaded planes carrying a total of over 600 passengers collided head-on in the middle of the runway in what is now known as the Tenerife Accident, named after Tenerife Island where the accident occurred. Over 500 people died.
Not true, the KLM plane was airborne at the time.It was not head on either, the Pan Am was turning off the runway and the KLM hit it amidships whilst airborne.
Random untruths?
I would argue that had it been 'airborne' no collision would have occured. Unless it was well below about 50 feet.
As an aside to this, bits of both aircraft can still be found in the grass at Los Rodeos Airport.
Edited by jonnyb on Saturday 29th April 18:27
Ayahuasca said:
LimaDelta said:
Gandahar said:
eldar said:
SpamCan said:
Different mission profile; the B-17 was a strategic bomber, the Lancaster, save for a few specially adapted variants, an area bomber.
What is the difference between strategic an area? You would be better off claiming both were temporal bombers, the B-17 doing days, the Lancaster doing nights.
Best summary would be to call them both bombers to bomb Germany en masse.
Edited by Gandahar on Thursday 27th April 17:43
Or was it the other way around?
The Americans claimed to only precision bomb, they had the Nordan bomb sight, so could claim accuracy. However, the tactics they employed meant that once the lead aircraft released its bombs so did the entire group. So one could argue that it was just about as accurate as the RAF, who sent bomber streams to a particular target. With the RAF, once the pathfinders had been introduced RAF bombing accuracy improved dramatically.
jonnyb said:
Wether it was airborne or not is arguable, but it definitely wasn't given take off clearance.
As an aside to this, bits of both aircraft can still be found in the grass at Los Rodeos Airport.
I've never heard it called los rodeos, it's been Tenerife North TFN as far as I can remember. I think the crash at TFN resulted in the newer airport in Tenerife South TFS to be built and the name change to Tenerife North. As an aside to this, bits of both aircraft can still be found in the grass at Los Rodeos Airport.
Edited by jonnyb on Saturday 29th April 18:27
The KLM 747 was just airborne having done a long tail strike due to early rotation after it saw the pan am 747. The KLM nose gear cleared the pan am but the main gear and the tail hit the cabin,
It's a strange airfield, tucked up in the hills, I've always thought it had an air of death about it.
El stovey said:
jonnyb said:
Wether it was airborne or not is arguable, but it definitely wasn't given take off clearance.
As an aside to this, bits of both aircraft can still be found in the grass at Los Rodeos Airport.
I've never heard it called los rodeos, it's been Tenerife North TFN as far as I can remember. I think the crash at TFN resulted in the newer airport in Tenerife South TFS to be built and the name change to Tenerife North. As an aside to this, bits of both aircraft can still be found in the grass at Los Rodeos Airport.
Edited by jonnyb on Saturday 29th April 18:27
The KLM 747 was just airborne having done a long tail strike due to early rotation after it saw the pan am 747. The KLM nose gear cleared the pan am but the main gear and the tail hit the cabin,
It's a strange airfield, tucked up in the hills, I've always thought it had an air of death about it.
I know the KLM tried to rotate, but is there any conclusive prove that it was airborne? Not that it matters.
Also, given the history of the airport, is it any surprise that it has a particular atmosphere about it? PanAm, KLM, Dan Air, all names forever associated with it.
My understanding is this (Tenerife) is one of the leading causes of mandatory CRM training. Back then captains were seen as gods and a first officer would never question a captain.
It is believed the first officer knew (or highly suspected) that they didn't have take off clearance but he was overridden (chastised by the captain) in to allowing the takeoff to happen.
The captain of the KLM aircraft was one of thier most senior captains and in charge he of training etc.
It resembles the Korean airlines crash in the U.K. Where the captains attitude indicator has a fault. The Korean 1st officer knew there was a difference between the two and must have looked at the 3rd standby attitude indicator but did nothing as the aircraft continued to roll before crashing just after take off.
Again another case of a very junior 1st officer scared to correct his captain.
Edit: CRM = Crew Resource Management = Basically who will do what, how they will communicate on the flight deck etc.
It is believed the first officer knew (or highly suspected) that they didn't have take off clearance but he was overridden (chastised by the captain) in to allowing the takeoff to happen.
The captain of the KLM aircraft was one of thier most senior captains and in charge he of training etc.
It resembles the Korean airlines crash in the U.K. Where the captains attitude indicator has a fault. The Korean 1st officer knew there was a difference between the two and must have looked at the 3rd standby attitude indicator but did nothing as the aircraft continued to roll before crashing just after take off.
Again another case of a very junior 1st officer scared to correct his captain.
Edit: CRM = Crew Resource Management = Basically who will do what, how they will communicate on the flight deck etc.
Edited by Markbarry1977 on Saturday 29th April 20:27
Contrary to what was depicted in the movie, Topgun did not teach tail-chasing dog-fighting in F14s. Its preferred F14 tactic was to get well away from the enemy, turn, and engage with missiles from a considerable distance.
But they were prone to spinning in jet wash, so that bit was accurate.
Source: the links posted by Jimmyjimjim about Topgun training.
https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&...
But they were prone to spinning in jet wash, so that bit was accurate.
Source: the links posted by Jimmyjimjim about Topgun training.
https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&...
Edited by Ayahuasca on Saturday 29th April 21:13
Edited by Ayahuasca on Saturday 29th April 21:14
El stovey said:
jonnyb said:
You have way too much free time, on a night stop are we?
I had to do a project about it years ago. I just remember thinking that when the pan am turned to try and leave the runway, loads of the passengers would have seen the KLM rotating towards them. Horrific. Prior to dropping the 'Fat Man' atom bomb on Nagasaki, for training purposes the Americans dropped onto Japan 49 bombs that were outwardly identical to the atom bomb. They were designed to mimic the characteristics of the atom bomb, except that they were filled with conventional explosives.
When B29's firebombed Tokyo, some aircraft were lost due to being caught up in the updraft from the fires.
When B29's firebombed Tokyo, some aircraft were lost due to being caught up in the updraft from the fires.
Ayahuasca said:
Prior to dropping the 'Fat Man' atom bomb on Nagasaki, for training purposes the Americans dropped onto Japan 49 bombs that were outwardly identical to the atom bomb. They were designed to mimic the characteristics of the atom bomb, except that they were filled with conventional explosives.
What did they drop them from? Only specially adapted B29s had a big enough bomb bay to carry the nukes, there was even a suggestion of using Lancasters instead.jonnyb said:
El stovey said:
jonnyb said:
Wether it was airborne or not is arguable, but it definitely wasn't given take off clearance.
As an aside to this, bits of both aircraft can still be found in the grass at Los Rodeos Airport.
I've never heard it called los rodeos, it's been Tenerife North TFN as far as I can remember. I think the crash at TFN resulted in the newer airport in Tenerife South TFS to be built and the name change to Tenerife North. As an aside to this, bits of both aircraft can still be found in the grass at Los Rodeos Airport.
Edited by jonnyb on Saturday 29th April 18:27
The KLM 747 was just airborne having done a long tail strike due to early rotation after it saw the pan am 747. The KLM nose gear cleared the pan am but the main gear and the tail hit the cabin,
It's a strange airfield, tucked up in the hills, I've always thought it had an air of death about it.
I know the KLM tried to rotate, but is there any conclusive prove that it was airborne? Not that it matters.
Also, given the history of the airport, is it any surprise that it has a particular atmosphere about it? PanAm, KLM, Dan Air, all names forever associated with it.
Eric Mc said:
From what I remember of the Tenerife accident, most of the aircraft (including the two 747s) should not even have been at that airport as they had been diverted due to a bomb scare at the main airport.
Indeed, they should never even have been on the island, they were diverted from Gran Canaria.It seems odd that an US airline was flying to the canaries.
You don't get any American carriers down there at all, and haven't for a long time.I wonder if it was a regular route in the 70s? The flight in question operated from Los Angeles to New York then to Gran Canaria. Aparently it was mainly full of retired people. Seems an unusual holiday destination when the snow birds have Florida and the Caribbean at their doorstep.
ETA just looked it up, apparently it was a charter for a cruise. Makes sense.
You don't get any American carriers down there at all, and haven't for a long time.I wonder if it was a regular route in the 70s? The flight in question operated from Los Angeles to New York then to Gran Canaria. Aparently it was mainly full of retired people. Seems an unusual holiday destination when the snow birds have Florida and the Caribbean at their doorstep.
ETA just looked it up, apparently it was a charter for a cruise. Makes sense.
Edited by anonymous-user on Sunday 30th April 13:46
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