Antonov An-2 crash at airshow

Antonov An-2 crash at airshow

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Discussion

KieronGSi

1,108 posts

205 months

Monday 4th September 2017
quotequote all
dr_gn said:
I assumed the turn (and smoke) was part of the display, but was too tight and caused a stall?
The AN-2 has a stall speed of about 35 mph, looms faster than that to me.

dr_gn

16,168 posts

185 months

Monday 4th September 2017
quotequote all
KieronGSi said:
dr_gn said:
I assumed the turn (and smoke) was part of the display, but was too tight and caused a stall?
The AN-2 has a stall speed of about 35 mph, looms faster than that to me.
The wing on the inside of a tight turn like that will see much a lower airspeed. I'd say it stalled, and it was game over.

aeropilot

34,670 posts

228 months

Monday 4th September 2017
quotequote all
Crikey........Aeros in an An-2..!!!

Looked he was coming out of, or trying come out of a previous higher manoeuvre, rather than just doing a tight turn....clip starts a bit late to see?
However, it also does look sadly like a lot of similarities to the infamous Bud Holland B-52 crash.


Eric Mc

122,053 posts

266 months

Monday 4th September 2017
quotequote all
dr_gn said:
I assumed the turn (and smoke) was part of the display, but was too tight and caused a stall?
100% agree. Air show manoeuver gone wrong - which is the normal cause of accidents at airshows.

Ginetta G15 Girl

3,220 posts

185 months

Monday 4th September 2017
quotequote all
Aircraft has a high rate of descent.

Pilot adds an excessive angle of bank, therefore increasing the rate of descent.

Adding back pressure does not arrest the descent. Possibly the added G causes a high speed stall.

Aircraft flies into ground.


I see a manoeuvre that is totally mishandled with tragic and entirely predictable results.


Edit: The idea that this was some heroic pilot turning away from the crowd is risible. It was a cock up of the first degree and entirely avoidable.



What the pilot shoud have done is: Unload. Roll wings level. Pull to the horizon.






Edited by Ginetta G15 Girl on Tuesday 5th September 12:05

AnotherClarkey

3,602 posts

190 months

Monday 4th September 2017
quotequote all
KieronGSi said:
The AN-2 has a stall speed of about 35 mph, looms faster than that to me.
Not if the wing loading is increased by pulling more g.

Ginetta G15 Girl

3,220 posts

185 months

Monday 4th September 2017
quotequote all
Stall speed increases as a factor of Root G applied.

Mave

8,208 posts

216 months

Tuesday 5th September 2017
quotequote all
AnotherClarkey said:
KieronGSi said:
The AN-2 has a stall speed of about 35 mph, looms faster than that to me.
Not if the wing loading is increased by pulling more g.
How do you pull more g with a stalled wing?

Eric Mc

122,053 posts

266 months

Tuesday 5th September 2017
quotequote all
The manoeuver begins when the wing is still generating lift and the turning moment is being applied by use of ailerons, rudder and even elevator. Once the G-loads have been applied, the wing may THEN stall - but by then it's too late, especially if the Gs were induced in a desperate attempt to avoid smacking the ground.

VansDriver

23 posts

87 months

Wednesday 6th September 2017
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It's hard to tell if that was a high speed stall from that angle- you can't judge how hard he was pulling. Even if it wasn't stalled, with that initial rate of descent as soon as he banked much above 60 degrees, there isn't much "upward" lift vector to arrest the rate of descent so the aircraft carried on down.

He over banked with a high rate of descent, too close to the ground- wether to not it stalled is pretty irrelevant.

It's possible that he realised that he'd left the turn too late and tried to turn inside the crowd line, but it was the subsequent over banking that caused the accident. He wasn't bravely steering a doomed craft away from innocents. If he'd used a moderate bank angle and a gentle pull he would have over-flown the crowd and got away with it.

Eric Mc

122,053 posts

266 months

Thursday 14th September 2017
quotequote all
Interesting initial report out from the Russian investigators -

the An2 involved in the accident's airworthiness certificate expired 5 YEARS AGO.

It's not clear if the two pilots on board had a type certificate for the An 2


https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/authori...

MartG

Original Poster:

20,693 posts

205 months

Thursday 14th September 2017
quotequote all
Eric Mc said:
Interesting initial report out from the Russian investigators -

the An2 involved in the accident's airworthiness certificate expired 5 YEARS AGO.

It's not clear if the two pilots on board had a type certificate for the An 2


https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/authori...
Wow frown

StephenP

1,886 posts

211 months

Thursday 14th September 2017
quotequote all
Pretty scary reading ....

'The authority is citing the accident as an example of operational violations in general aviation, adding that "bravado" which "borders on the criminal" is contributing to accidents.

It says a recent landing accident – involving a TR-301, which is based on the An-2 – followed an unauthorised flight in the Sverdlovsk region. The pilot, who refused medical assistance and screening for psychoactive substances, was in a "visible altered state of consciousness", adds the regulator.'

Even more alarming was the line about 17 GA accidents this year in which 8 of the aircraft didn't have airworthiness certificates .....


Eric Mc

122,053 posts

266 months

Thursday 14th September 2017
quotequote all
Russia really is "the wild west" when it comes to regulations and their obeyance.

Ayahuasca

27,427 posts

280 months

Monday 18th September 2017
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VansDriver said:
It's hard to tell if that was a high speed stall from that angle- you can't judge how hard he was pulling. Even if it wasn't stalled, with that initial rate of descent as soon as he banked much above 60 degrees, there isn't much "upward" lift vector to arrest the rate of descent so the aircraft carried on down.

He over banked with a high rate of descent, too close to the ground- wether to not it stalled is pretty irrelevant.

It's possible that he realised that he'd left the turn too late and tried to turn inside the crowd line, but it was the subsequent over banking that caused the accident. He wasn't bravely steering a doomed craft away from innocents. If he'd used a moderate bank angle and a gentle pull he would have over-flown the crowd and got away with it.
I have not seen the video, but your description sounds very similar to what happened in the 1994 B52 air display crash, also ending in a massive bank angle, tight turn, no vertical lift component, and disaster.