Ask a Pilot anything....

[jinkster]

exelero said:

I’m going to bring this thread back up. If I wanted to train up to be an airline pilot how old is too old? I’m 28 at the moment but 29 is quickly approaching.
I have next to nothing experience in flying, never sat in a cockpit or anything.
Is there a company that pays for your training?
I did get into it a few years ago, but when I found out it costs something like 90k to get trained I gave up.

So how old is too old and where do I start should I decide to proceed ?

Hello, 28/ 29 is certainly not too old. Sept 11/ Financial crash and now Covid has put a stop to all of the sponsorships so your back to the near £100k for training again I am afraid. I'd certainly go for a trial lesson at your local flying school and have a look at the CAA Class 1 medical which you'll need to pass before you go commercial. I know quite a few experience pilots currently out of work because of Covid and hopefully they will be swallowed back into flying employment very soon. Good luck and do ask further questions should you need to know. One of us will be able to help.

[Magnum 475]

exelero said:

I’m going to bring this thread back up. If I wanted to train up to be an airline pilot how old is too old? I’m 28 at the moment but 29 is quickly approaching.
I have next to nothing experience in flying, never sat in a cockpit or anything.
Is there a company that pays for your training?
I did get into it a few years ago, but when I found out it costs something like 90k to get trained I gave up.

So how old is too old and where do I start should I decide to proceed ?

Not too old - I know guys who've done this well into their 30s (including my old FI who's now a 777 Captain with Emirates).

No company is going to pay for your training (other than the RAF if you're lucky) - there are too many folks who really want to fly and pay for their own training these days. One or two airlines will fund your Type Rating when you get that far - expect to be bonded for 5 years on low pay afterwards though. Personally, I'd fund my own type rating and take the higher pay / lack of bonding that goes with it...

You have two options for training:

1. Integrated - effectively full time training for a period of time that will get you to PPL - CPL/IR/MCC in several months.
2. Modular - you'll do a PPL first, then build hours up to 150, then work through your CPL / IR, & MCC in timescales to suit you.

There are companies out there who will lend you money for training, but be warned... it's really not a cheap thing to do. I did my CPL in 2008, so the rules may have changed since then, but at that point you needed a minimum of 150 hours logged. I don't think there's anyone out there will hire you anything airworthy for less than £120 / hour. Some of those hours early on will be dual with instructor, so you can budget around £20k to get the point where you start training for the CPL. Then there's the IR... that's **really** expensive.

A typical type rating is going to make getting to 150 hours look cheap....

Be sure this is something you really want, and monitor the job market carefully. Right now, you've got commercial pilots working as delivery drivers and checkout operators...

[Nurburgsingh]

Do you know anyone called Roger, and do you take every opportunity to finish talking by saying roger,Roger

[jinkster]

Nurburgsingh said:

Do you know anyone called Roger, and do you take every opportunity to finish talking by saying roger,Roger

Not many Rogers but a couple of Victors.

[JuniorD]

28 / 29 is not too late. Up until covid, Aer Lingus we’re still doing fully funded cadet pilot programs but I can’t see that happening again for a number of years, if at all.

[anonymous-user]

Magnum 475 said:

Be sure this is something you really want, and monitor the job market carefully. Right now, you've got commercial pilots working as delivery drivers and checkout operators...

Not many in the U.K. though that are actually doing it because they’ve been made completely redundant. Obviously there’s been some redundancies in U.K. airlines but far less than you’d probably imagine.

I know a few pilots doing deliveries or similar jobs whilst there isn’t much work on but they’re still being paid over 100k by their airline. Obviously they usually don’t advertise that at work. I saw an article in a local paper about this during the pandemic about an airline captain who was driving for Tesco, I knew him and he was certainly still on very good money.

In the Middle East, airlines like emirates have just got rid of loads of pilots but nobody goes there and expects job security. Anyone working for emirates or similar knows that the minute there’s a downturn they’re out and emirates don’t give a toss, especially if you’re a foreigner.

I’m involved in recruitment for my U.K. airline and we’re expecting to be recruiting next year as many have retired and work is picking up now, I think it’s similar in a few U.K. airlines that I talk with. Promotions are even still happening and there’s guys in my airline in their mid twenties getting commands at the moment so it’s not a bad time to be starting training at all.

You’re right though, you have to really want it and there’s no guarantee you’ll get a job after embarking on the training. It’s still an amazing career for those that do go for it though.

To answer your question though, no you’re not too old, we have loads of pilots who’ve come in after previous careers but always wanted to fly. They’re the guys that must have really wanted it, going home to their wife etc and saying they’re quitting their job to become pilots with no job lined up.

It was easy for me starting young with nobody to support and no responsibilities. It must be much harder to do when you’re already in a decent job but fancy a change of career.

Edited by anonymous-user on Wednesday 28th July 14:26

[Ntv]

Lord.Vader said:

Eyersey1234 said:

How much does a jumbo jet like a 747, airbus a380 etc cost? Also do the airlines buy them or lease them?

Generally the price list isn't the actual price, dependent upon deals and volumes, etc.

But a A380 is appx 430-450M USD ( http://www.airbus.com/newsroom/press-releases/en/2... ), you must also factor in the engines are generally owned by the airline or leasing company direct and as such have a specific support contract, what I mean is Airbus do not "sell" the engine to the airline, we install it but the airline will own it direct from GE, RR, etc.

There are various ways of buying aircraft, for example when Singapore returned their first A380s they never actually owned them, merely leased them, we also have what are known as "white-tails", i.e. Aircraft that have been built in a production run and then go unsold (Airline goes bankrupt, cancels lease, or whatever).

Currently there are some deals to be had on leasing.

A330s are £300,000 per month asking price but very large discounts can be negotiated.

[AndrewGP]

Magnum 475 said:

Not too old - I know guys who've done this well into their 30s (including my old FI who's now a 777 Captain with Emirates).

No company is going to pay for your training (other than the RAF if you're lucky) - there are too many folks who really want to fly and pay for their own training these days. One or two airlines will fund your Type Rating when you get that far - expect to be bonded for 5 years on low pay afterwards though. Personally, I'd fund my own type rating and take the higher pay / lack of bonding that goes with it...

You have two options for training:

1. Integrated - effectively full time training for a period of time that will get you to PPL - CPL/IR/MCC in several months.
2. Modular - you'll do a PPL first, then build hours up to 150, then work through your CPL / IR, & MCC in timescales to suit you.

There are companies out there who will lend you money for training, but be warned... it's really not a cheap thing to do. I did my CPL in 2008, so the rules may have changed since then, but at that point you needed a minimum of 150 hours logged. I don't think there's anyone out there will hire you anything airworthy for less than £120 / hour. Some of those hours early on will be dual with instructor, so you can budget around £20k to get the point where you start training for the CPL. Then there's the IR... that's **really** expensive.

A typical type rating is going to make getting to 150 hours look cheap....

Be sure this is something you really want, and monitor the job market carefully. Right now, you've got commercial pilots working as delivery drivers and checkout operators...

Good post. If I may add a slightly pessimistic view….

I personally believe that anyone who starts an Integrated Course right now is taking an enormous risk. As Magnum says above, COVID has decimated the industry and there are a lot of very experienced people with thousands of commercial hours not flying right now. And that’s just those who were UK based before the pandemic hit, there are also a lot of experienced pilots returning from Asia and the Far East who will add to those numbers.

No one really knows what the recovery will look like right now and how long it will take. I personally was made redundant from a large UK based airline last September (the one with the red, blue and white flag on the tail ) and although we have been told the airline would like us back sometime, there are no guarantees, no timescales and no promises regarding aircraft fleet, pay, pensions etc. Out of the 8 of us who joined together, only I’m in a flying job right now and that’s only because I’ve rejoined the RAF back in my old job.

Finally there’s the whole green debate and shifting opinion that flying is becoming socially unacceptable due to climate change. I think this will take some years to gain traction, but it is coming and it will reduce passenger demand and therefore pilot demand in the future.

I’m not saying don’t do it. I’ve been flying professionally all my working life (I went solo in an aircraft well before I did in a car) and I still absolutely love it. I’m just saying think very carefully before committing £100k+ to a training course with shaky prospects at the end of it.

[exelero]

I’m afraid I don’t want it that much. It would be a good route but I still think I’m old for it and o have a lot of responsibilities at the moment ( kid on the way etc). Would be nice to earn some big bucks though, but as with anything it’s kind of too late for me

[Swift93]

I had a post, but realized the US system I flew in is far different in UK. My advice for a young person wanting to fly would be look to the military.

Edited by Swift93 on Friday 30th July 02:40

Edited by Swift93 on Friday 30th July 02:41

[exelero]

Swift93 said:

I had a post, but realized the US system I flew in is far different in UK. My advice for a young person wanting to fly would be look to the military.

Edited by Swift93 on Friday 30th July 02:40

Edited by Swift93 on Friday 30th July 02:41

That would be my advice also

[AndrewGP]

exelero said:

I’m afraid I don’t want it that much. It would be a good route but I still think I’m old for it and o have a lot of responsibilities at the moment ( kid on the way etc). Would be nice to earn some big bucks though, but as with anything it’s kind of too late for me

Sorry to burst your bubble, it’s a bit ste out there right now. It will get better of course, but no one knows when.

Joining the military to fly is certainly a way, but may not be the best way. Whilst it’s what I did and it worked for me (well, briefly ) there’s definite pros and cons. It certainly works out cheaper, I think I paid about £12k all in as the CAA gives you certain military credits towards your license. I had to take the 14 ground exams (about a year to complete) and do my IR (instrument rating) on a DA-42 light twin at Gloucester Airport. The IR was really stressful, I think I had about 4 hours on the aircraft before my test and I barely knew how to operate the bloody thing Anyway, once these and a few other minor bits were complete I was issued with my licence.

It goes without saying that military flying and service isn’t for everyone and the selection and training are very aggressive. You also don’t get a lot of choice as to where you end up when you’ve finished either. It can take a long time to get to the front line as well, there are some issues with the new flying training system and some of the new pilots are seeing quite long holding tours in between the various stages of flying training. All this means that they’re quite a bit older than their civilian colleagues by the time they’re productive.

Military flying could also be viewed as a waste of time if all you want is to be an airline pilot. You have to complete 12 years service as a minimum and when viewed against a seniority based airline structure where pay increases yearly, that’s a lot of money and pension payments you’re not going to earn at the end of your career, especially when your salary is going to be at its highest level. You’re also going to be later to move across to the Captain’s seat as it’s usual to have to complete a certain amount of time as a First Officer before being allowed to complete the command course. In my case at the UK’s flag carrier, it was unlikely I’d ever move across due to my age and the length of time to Command.

On the flip side though, military flying is awesome fun. It’s generally very varied, very dynamic and challenging. No two days are the same and you get to do some really interesting stuff that you wouldn’t do anywhere else (like getting shot at ). It’s also a great way to break up what could possibly be a 40 year career that could get quite mundane in an airline by doing a bit of both.

I certainly have no regrets as it’s not all about the money, for me it was about having great mates, great experiences and having a varied and interesting flying career.

[surveyor]

exelero said:

I’m afraid I don’t want it that much. It would be a good route but I still think I’m old for it and o have a lot of responsibilities at the moment ( kid on the way etc). Would be nice to earn some big bucks though, but as with anything it’s kind of too late for me

I made a similar decision at a similar age and pretty much regret it now.

While I can understand some of the pilots being a bit negative now, I personally think there never has been a better time to start. Do it gradually while working. There were already pilot shortages beginning to occur, although the UK with it's current model minimised this by big airlines going bust and dumping the odd block of employees in the market.

Some will have retired or taking redundancy and I suspect in 2 years time there will be opportunities. The risk is sill the biggest issue.

[djc206]

AndrewGP said:

Sorry to burst your bubble, it’s a bit ste out there right now. It will get better of course, but no one knows when.

Surely the green shoots are already appearing? Delta are recruiting for example and the US although largely a domestic market is facing an imminent shortage (great for the experienced pilots out there rather than newbies admittedly). Given how many of the older boys have taken early retirement packages across the industry combined with the pausing of training during the pandemic and very reasonable fear of coming out of training with no job putting prospective pilots off my money would be on a shortage sooner rather than later this side of the pond too. I am not a pilot though this is just the view of someone elsewhere in the industry facing a similar shortage exacerbated by the pandemic response.

[anonymous-user]

surveyor said:

exelero said:

I’m afraid I don’t want it that much. It would be a good route but I still think I’m old for it and o have a lot of responsibilities at the moment ( kid on the way etc). Would be nice to earn some big bucks though, but as with anything it’s kind of too late for me

I made a similar decision at a similar age and pretty much regret it now.

While I can understand some of the pilots being a bit negative now, I personally think there never has been a better time to start. Do it gradually while working. There were already pilot shortages beginning to occur, although the UK with it's current model minimised this by big airlines going bust and dumping the odd block of employees in the market.

Some will have retired or taking redundancy and I suspect in 2 years time there will be opportunities. The risk is sill the biggest issue.

Totally agree,

Even in the U.K. some airlines haven’t made any redundancies at all and like I said are looking to recruit new pilots next year.

The pandemic has really shown who the good employers are when you look at how cutbacks and redundancy has been handled in the different airlines.

Some airlines have used the pandemic to make changes to everyone’s terms and conditions long term, others have just got rid of pilots and cabin crew without properly exploring other avenues first.

The outlook here is far better now than people initially thought at the beginning of the pandemic.

Talking about the airlines generically (even in the U.K.) is meaningless as they all have different management and ways of doing things and pilots have all been treated very differently during the pandemic by their different employers.

[DFLR]

What sunglasses do most pilots wear? Is any particular brand favoured?

I know an American pilot and he swears by Randolph Engineering sunglasses.

[AndrewGP]

djc206 said:

AndrewGP said:

Sorry to burst your bubble, it’s a bit ste out there right now. It will get better of course, but no one knows when.

Surely the green shoots are already appearing? Delta are recruiting for example and the US although largely a domestic market is facing an imminent shortage (great for the experienced pilots out there rather than newbies admittedly). Given how many of the older boys have taken early retirement packages across the industry combined with the pausing of training during the pandemic and very reasonable fear of coming out of training with no job putting prospective pilots off my money would be on a shortage sooner rather than later this side of the pond too. I am not a pilot though this is just the view of someone elsewhere in the industry facing a similar shortage exacerbated by the pandemic response.

I would agree the green shoots are appearing yes, there are definitely more aircraft in the sky right now and that’s backed up by looking at the EuroControl ATC website which shows detailed statistics on flight movements, showing them on an upward trend.

My first post on the subject above probably came across as overly pessimistic, it wasn’t meant to, rather just provide a different, balanced opinion on the possible recovery based on my experiences. However, I have many airline friends and colleagues who have no prospects whatsoever right now, they’re working for DPD, Amazon, the Police, doing gardening jobs etc just to get by. I also see the lack of joined up international rules on air travel, Boris’s dithering and regular changing of the rules and slow vaccine rollouts across some countries as slowing things down.

But who knows? I do hope my views are unfounded and I’m happy to admit my experiences don’t represent that of the whole airline industry, just a narrow slice of it. I’ll certainly be happy to be told I got it wrong. I guess we’ll find out in the fullness of time

[Mercdriver]

DFLR said:

What sunglasses do most pilots wear? Is any particular brand favoured?

I know an American pilot and he swears by Randolph Engineering sunglasses.

I flew for parachute club in 90’s and purchased these when on holiday in USA. Used them all year round, even in winter it is sunny above cloud.

Best sunglasses I have ever had, filter out strong sunlight but still easy to read Instruments, very light to wear.

No longer a pilot but still use them in car despite a few scratches.

I would be lost without them

[Mercdriver]

I started flying gliders, silver C reduced course for PPL, night rating, IMC.

Ended up flying for a para club and 1500 hours total time

Decided I wanted a challenge and studied for CPL correspondence course. I had a well paid job and reluctant to give salary up on gamble of a job if I passed. Found it difficult to pass written exams without attending a full time study course so gave it up.

If you are single flying is a superb job, not so sure if married

If you are based in south east England then it is possibly easier to move between jobs, what happens if airline decide to stop flights where you are based? You need to base yourself in Inverness, Move job, move house, move children schools?

You work nights, time away from home, weekends, split shifts etc so there are disadvantages too

[djc206]

AndrewGP said:

I would agree the green shoots are appearing yes, there are definitely more aircraft in the sky right now and that’s backed up by looking at the EuroControl ATC website which shows detailed statistics on flight movements, showing them on an upward trend.

My first post on the subject above probably came across as overly pessimistic, it wasn’t meant to, rather just provide a different, balanced opinion on the possible recovery based on my experiences. However, I have many airline friends and colleagues who have no prospects whatsoever right now, they’re working for DPD, Amazon, the Police, doing gardening jobs etc just to get by. I also see the lack of joined up international rules on air travel, Boris’s dithering and regular changing of the rules and slow vaccine rollouts across some countries as slowing things down.

But who knows? I do hope my views are unfounded and I’m happy to admit my experiences don’t represent that of the whole airline industry, just a narrow slice of it. I’ll certainly be happy to be told I got it wrong. I guess we’ll find out in the fullness of time

No not at all your post came across as extremely realistic for the very reasons you highlight above such as the appalling flip flopping of our useless government. It’s an entirely sensible position when you’re looking at spending £100k+ on training. I see a glimmer of hope and if I were in the position to invest that kind of money, didn’t have adult responsibilities and wanted to fly I think I might just take a chance not necessarily right now but within the next year or two, but that’s easy for me to say because I’m not actually going to do it! I can see it being a pilots market again in the not so distant future.