"Flight Instructors Rating" as MANDATORY
Discussion
I would have added more to the title "BUT THE COMPUTER SAID NO!!" The full question I wanted to ask was should ALL PILOTS have it mandatory if not willing to under take the Flighing Instructors course and successfully obtain the rating before being accepted into the commercial airline industry? This would be for anything like cargo, ferry and most important you, myself and our loved ones
I ask this because I have been watching Aircrash Investigation lately and OMG..... I can't help but think and wonder if it's like all the car licence holders out there who knew themselves they should have failed (and not be let loose/ only to have passed their test on that day, WOW, it's what could only be described as a miracle, having all the heavenly gods with them on that particular day. Well we all know someone who fits that description don't we?? Surely there's a pilot who knows of a pilot that also "had a miracle test day". Bet they themselves or their family members wouldn't want to be on a flight with that person in control.
Would you?...
I ask this because I have been watching Aircrash Investigation lately and OMG..... I can't help but think and wonder if it's like all the car licence holders out there who knew themselves they should have failed (and not be let loose/ only to have passed their test on that day, WOW, it's what could only be described as a miracle, having all the heavenly gods with them on that particular day. Well we all know someone who fits that description don't we?? Surely there's a pilot who knows of a pilot that also "had a miracle test day". Bet they themselves or their family members wouldn't want to be on a flight with that person in control.
Would you?...
A lot of pilots who are looking to gain hours before going commercial do it by instructing. I'm assuming the Flight Instructor rating is not that hard to get.
While the tv programme's are typically damming, there is nearly always a swiss cheese model in play. In reality there are really not many at all when you consider the number of flights.
In the case of A330 you had a tired captain, bad weather, pitot freezing, pilot flying not recognising the fault, pilot not flying not recognising what his daft colleague was doing with his stick, and the captain getting to the cockpit too late...
Easy to blame the pilot - but it's a more systemic problem.
While the tv programme's are typically damming, there is nearly always a swiss cheese model in play. In reality there are really not many at all when you consider the number of flights.
In the case of A330 you had a tired captain, bad weather, pitot freezing, pilot flying not recognising the fault, pilot not flying not recognising what his daft colleague was doing with his stick, and the captain getting to the cockpit too late...
Easy to blame the pilot - but it's a more systemic problem.
MarkwG said:
5150 said:
Those who can, do; Those who can't, teach (those that can't teach, examine!).
and then there are those that spout tired cliches...
MarkwG said:
5150 said:
Those who can, do; Those who can't, teach (those that can't teach, examine!).
and then there are those that spout tired cliches...
Teaching something is the best way to learn how to do something properly.
I have instructed for years and still do on the very rare occasion I get 5 minutes to do anything I want to do... Airline flying and instructing in a spamcan are different of course, but I'd always say that having an FI ticket was a good thing.
In terms of handling skill, you learn a 6th sense about what the aircraft is doing and you finely tune your arse to understanding what is happening in a way that you cannot learn in 50T+ modern jet. I can tell if the thing is out of balance even slightly without looking the ball, or out of trim or anyone of a thousand little bits of info that get transmitted into your rear end by the aircraft that tells you what is happening.
I learnt that from flying in little aeroplanes, not big ones. It is just so much more obvious in them that you just get used to the feedback. That's not to say that people who haven't done thousands of hours in crappy cessnas can't feel what is going on, but take two people new to a big aeroplane and I reckon it is fairly obvious who has the better feel for the machine faster.
There are other things they might not be so good at, so it is swings and roundabouts really.
Learning more and having a wider range of experience is never a bad thing imho.
I have instructed for years and still do on the very rare occasion I get 5 minutes to do anything I want to do... Airline flying and instructing in a spamcan are different of course, but I'd always say that having an FI ticket was a good thing.
In terms of handling skill, you learn a 6th sense about what the aircraft is doing and you finely tune your arse to understanding what is happening in a way that you cannot learn in 50T+ modern jet. I can tell if the thing is out of balance even slightly without looking the ball, or out of trim or anyone of a thousand little bits of info that get transmitted into your rear end by the aircraft that tells you what is happening.
I learnt that from flying in little aeroplanes, not big ones. It is just so much more obvious in them that you just get used to the feedback. That's not to say that people who haven't done thousands of hours in crappy cessnas can't feel what is going on, but take two people new to a big aeroplane and I reckon it is fairly obvious who has the better feel for the machine faster.
There are other things they might not be so good at, so it is swings and roundabouts really.
Learning more and having a wider range of experience is never a bad thing imho.
Cossieflyer said:
Well we all know someone who fits that description don't we?? Surely there's a pilot who knows of a pilot that also "had a miracle test day". Bet they themselves or their family members wouldn't want to be on a flight with that person in control.
Would you?...
They'd have to have a miracle test day every six months wouldn't they?Would you?...
MarkwG said:
As I typed: it's a tired cliche, & smacks of lazy thinking. It disrespects a group of people who are generally dedicated, hard working & professional; as are the majority of pilots I know.
Well, considering it's a cliche, you shouldn't take the comment too seriously. Too err is human, and to infer that flight instructors are immune to mistakes, or have no chance of being involved in an accident is somewhat ridiculous.
As anyone with an aircrew license will know - not everyone who flies has a natural aptitude for instructing.
While the student / instructor chemistry means that there's room for many different personality types in the flight instruction discipline, we all eventually find the instructor type which works best for us.
Why foist an instructor on a student who plainly has no interest in or aptitude for teaching?
It's bad enough receiving instruction from disinterested hour-builders as it is - why encourage the buggers!
Having been instructed by all types from an ex-WW2 combat pilot to hour-building newbies - it became apparent to me which personality type was the most constructive for my progress.
Tim
While the student / instructor chemistry means that there's room for many different personality types in the flight instruction discipline, we all eventually find the instructor type which works best for us.
Why foist an instructor on a student who plainly has no interest in or aptitude for teaching?
It's bad enough receiving instruction from disinterested hour-builders as it is - why encourage the buggers!
Having been instructed by all types from an ex-WW2 combat pilot to hour-building newbies - it became apparent to me which personality type was the most constructive for my progress.
Tim
5150 said:
Well, considering it's a cliche, you shouldn't take the comment too seriously.
Too err is human, and to infer that flight instructors are immune to mistakes, or have no chance of being involved in an accident is somewhat ridiculous.
I'll take it as seriously as I like, thanks all the same. Nowhere did I imply anything about flying instructors & their chances of being involved in an accident, I suggest you read what I wrote again.Too err is human, and to infer that flight instructors are immune to mistakes, or have no chance of being involved in an accident is somewhat ridiculous.
Edited by MarkwG on Tuesday 27th February 17:52
MarkwG said:
5150 said:
Well, considering it's a cliche, you shouldn't take the comment too seriously.
Too err is human, and to infer that flight instructors are immune to mistakes, or have no chance of being involved in an accident is somewhat ridiculous.
I'll take it as seriously as I like, thanks all the same. Nowhere did I imply anything about flying instructors & their chances of being involved in an accident, I suggest you read what I wrote again.Too err is human, and to infer that flight instructors are immune to mistakes, or have no chance of being involved in an accident is somewhat ridiculous.
Edited by MarkwG on Tuesday 27th February 17:52
I’m in agreement with 5150 on the idea that instructors can’t make mistakes just like a non-instructor can. A great many airline crew in the US instruct on their way to their 1500 hours, but the US is not immune to accidents. I was taught by a very good instructor on a light aircraft, but he unfortunately failed line training when he was recruited by the same airline I fly for. I know of an experienced military pilot, now an airline trainer, who recently put a passenger aircraft into a situation you would never have expected from someone with that CV.
Trying to stick a one-size-fits-all solution to an industry generally doesn’t work very well, and the tone of the original post comes across as borderline hysterical tbh. Should all buses be driven only by driving instructors? Should cross-channel ferries be helmed exclusively by RYA instructors?
I’ve been taught by Mark, in my previous career, and he was superb at it as well as being a thoroughly nice bloke. The time will come when I respond to “planes these days fly themselves anyway mate” with a rolleyes rather than a wan smile.
Trying to stick a one-size-fits-all solution to an industry generally doesn’t work very well, and the tone of the original post comes across as borderline hysterical tbh. Should all buses be driven only by driving instructors? Should cross-channel ferries be helmed exclusively by RYA instructors?
I’ve been taught by Mark, in my previous career, and he was superb at it as well as being a thoroughly nice bloke. The time will come when I respond to “planes these days fly themselves anyway mate” with a rolleyes rather than a wan smile.
Prawo Jazdy said:
I’m in agreement with 5150 on the idea that instructors can’t make mistakes just like a non-instructor can. A great many airline crew in the US instruct on their way to their 1500 hours, but the US is not immune to accidents. I was taught by a very good instructor on a light aircraft, but he unfortunately failed line training when he was recruited by the same airline I fly for. I know of an experienced military pilot, now an airline trainer, who recently put a passenger aircraft into a situation you would never have expected from someone with that CV.
Trying to stick a one-size-fits-all solution to an industry generally doesn’t work very well, and the tone of the original post comes across as borderline hysterical tbh. Should all buses be driven only by driving instructors? Should cross-channel ferries be helmed exclusively by RYA instructors?
I quite agree - the OP does seem spooked by something, & that's a knee jerk solution, not well thought through. "Just" having an Instructor Rating is no more an indication of an ability to solve any problem than a Blue Peter badge would be; it's not a Superman/woman outfit. The issue is about training, but not just instructing; it's about how we prepare aircrew, & whether time served flying & instructing on light aircraft, or indeed military jets, is valuable experience for line flying with the major airlines. Just because "it was always done that way", doesn't make it fit for purpose now- and the airlines have voted with their cheque books: they find it better to train to what they need, rather than hoping they can convert people with hours, but not necessarily hours built the way they need.Trying to stick a one-size-fits-all solution to an industry generally doesn’t work very well, and the tone of the original post comes across as borderline hysterical tbh. Should all buses be driven only by driving instructors? Should cross-channel ferries be helmed exclusively by RYA instructors?
Prawo Jazdy said:
I’ve been taught by Mark, in my previous career, and he was superb at it as well as being a thoroughly nice bloke. The time will come when I respond to “planes these days fly themselves anyway mate” with a rolleyes rather than a wan smile.
Cheers, much appreciated, they were fun times! I think you're better off that side of the radio, these days, it's not pretty down here. We get the same re "you won't be needed, the machine will do it", it's causing us major recruitment/retention issues. I recall when I started, my dad reckoned I'd be out of a job in 5 years, computers would take over...funnily enough, still here...Gassing Station | Boats, Planes & Trains | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff