Tornado To Be Axed
Discussion
MartG said:
Evanivitch said:
I can give you multiple examples of MOD mismanagement driving up costs and the supplier being painted as the money grabbing machine.
One example being stretching out a project to 'save' money, the MoD logic being that if a project will cost say £100M over 5 years, at £20m/year, then stretching it out to 10 years will reduce that figure to £10M/year with no increase in overall cost. In reality of course the contractor has certain fixed costs ( staff wages, utility costs, finance charges, etc. ) which would be doubled by such a delay, never mind the effect of inflation, so the final total rises massively.And of course they also keep changing the requirements - "we wanted something to do X, but now we want it to do Y and Z too. What do you mean it's going to cost more ?"
Edited by MartG on Thursday 26th April 11:21
Europa1 said:
Trevatanus said:
I guess there are no plans to keep any airworthy for displays etc?
I realise that the BBMF is exactly that, a memorial to the Battle of Britain, BUT, Tornado has done a stirling job in many conflicts for several decades, I guess it's all down to cash though.
I suspect a Tornado is way, way too complex to keep flying compared to the BBMF aircraft.I realise that the BBMF is exactly that, a memorial to the Battle of Britain, BUT, Tornado has done a stirling job in many conflicts for several decades, I guess it's all down to cash though.
And just to add my personal note of pedantry: why is it called the Battle of Britain Memorial Flight when it includes a Lancaster?
Edited by Europa1 on Thursday 26th April 11:34
Not a memorial specific to the BOB now, although that was its original purpose. It does not operate any jets, so I doubt it is going to start with a Tornado.
Ayahuasca said:
Europa1 said:
Trevatanus said:
I guess there are no plans to keep any airworthy for displays etc?
I realise that the BBMF is exactly that, a memorial to the Battle of Britain, BUT, Tornado has done a stirling job in many conflicts for several decades, I guess it's all down to cash though.
I suspect a Tornado is way, way too complex to keep flying compared to the BBMF aircraft.I realise that the BBMF is exactly that, a memorial to the Battle of Britain, BUT, Tornado has done a stirling job in many conflicts for several decades, I guess it's all down to cash though.
And just to add my personal note of pedantry: why is it called the Battle of Britain Memorial Flight when it includes a Lancaster?
Edited by Europa1 on Thursday 26th April 11:34
Not a memorial specific to the BOB now, although that was its original purpose. It does not operate any jets, so I doubt it is going to start with a Tornado.
The operating costs of Tornado are very high. These are multiplied, per aircraft, if you only keep one flying. There's no way it'll happen. The RAF isn't flush with cash, BAeSystems don't have a glowing history of keeping old aircraft flying without a business case, and private individuals won't be allowed to fly them. So that'll be that. But hey, a Typhoon is a much better display aircraft as far as the general public is concerned.
frodo_monkey said:
Have you been drinking the BAE Kool Aid?! Typhoon is just a brilliantly simple way for BAE to milk the taxpayer dry - the only reason it is anywhere near as capable as it is, is the hard work of Service people. No thanks to the shysters at Warton.
An incredibly ignorant post. Is the RAF now a design authority?
Tony1963 said:
frodo_monkey said:
Have you been drinking the BAE Kool Aid?! Typhoon is just a brilliantly simple way for BAE to milk the taxpayer dry - the only reason it is anywhere near as capable as it is, is the hard work of Service people. No thanks to the shysters at Warton.
An incredibly ignorant post. Is the RAF now a design authority?
As for the [additional?] capability being the hard work of service people. Not so sure, I'd like to ask them to stop breaking things by putting their hands/heads where they shouldn't!!
AndrewEH1 said:
Tony1963 said:
frodo_monkey said:
Have you been drinking the BAE Kool Aid?! Typhoon is just a brilliantly simple way for BAE to milk the taxpayer dry - the only reason it is anywhere near as capable as it is, is the hard work of Service people. No thanks to the shysters at Warton.
An incredibly ignorant post. Is the RAF now a design authority?
As for the [additional?] capability being the hard work of service people. Not so sure, I'd like to ask them to stop breaking things by putting their hands/heads where they shouldn't!!
I don’t think it’s that ignorant a post; no names/no pack drill to protect the innocent, but I know very well an instance on Typhoon of some work being carried out to correct incorrect BAES documentation, which we traced and worked out BAE had taken and subsequently billed the MoD 4x for. Individually I like people at BAE, but their corporate ethos...
And agreed with regard to other companies, and there are some others I would but shouldn’t mention. Interestingly I’ve always had good experiences with Selex/Leonardo, but appreciate others may not have. I mention them specifically to show that it isn’t all bad, and because I don’t have anything to do with them currently.
I absolutely agree that MoD, individual Services and DE&S need to be far, far better at specifying reasonable and achievable Reqts, and then sticking to the plan. I’m now an RM, who knew?! And for clarity not working with BAES or Leonardo.
As for Tornado being kept on for display purposes? No plans and no chance. Much as I love the old bus, she was enough of a nightmare to keep going with a full team of support from RAF and industry engineers. Best put out to grass!
Edited by frodo_monkey on Thursday 26th April 20:03
frodo_monkey said:
There is that... don’t think it was ever me but if so I apologise!
I don’t think it’s that ignorant a post; no names/no pack drill to protect the innocent, but I know very well an instance on Typhoon of some work being carried out to correct incorrect BAES documentation, which we traced and worked out BAE had taken and subsequently billed the MoD 4x for. Individually I like people at BAE, but their corporate ethos...
And agreed with regard to other companies, and there are some others I would but shouldn’t mention. Interestingly I’ve always had good experiences with Selex/Leonardo, but appreciate others may not have. I mention them specifically to show that it isn’t all bad, and because I don’t have anything to do with them currently.
I absolutely agree that MoD, individual Services and DE&S need to be far, far better at specifying reasonable and achievable Reqts, and then sticking to the plan. I’m now an RM, who knew?! And for clarity not working with BAES or Leonardo.
As for Tornado being kept on for display purposes? No plans and no chance. Much as I love the old bus, she was enough of a nightmare to keep going with a full team of support from RAF and industry engineers. Best put out to grass!
Nice to hear that!I don’t think it’s that ignorant a post; no names/no pack drill to protect the innocent, but I know very well an instance on Typhoon of some work being carried out to correct incorrect BAES documentation, which we traced and worked out BAE had taken and subsequently billed the MoD 4x for. Individually I like people at BAE, but their corporate ethos...
And agreed with regard to other companies, and there are some others I would but shouldn’t mention. Interestingly I’ve always had good experiences with Selex/Leonardo, but appreciate others may not have. I mention them specifically to show that it isn’t all bad, and because I don’t have anything to do with them currently.
I absolutely agree that MoD, individual Services and DE&S need to be far, far better at specifying reasonable and achievable Reqts, and then sticking to the plan. I’m now an RM, who knew?! And for clarity not working with BAES or Leonardo.
As for Tornado being kept on for display purposes? No plans and no chance. Much as I love the old bus, she was enough of a nightmare to keep going with a full team of support from RAF and industry engineers. Best put out to grass!
I think the UK/Europe could learn a think or two from our American cousins (let's ignore JSF for now
) but they do not f
k about when it comes to their Prime contractors. Definitely high pressure working on their contracts but things move quickly and to plan.AndrewEH1 said:
frodo_monkey said:
There is that... don’t think it was ever me but if so I apologise!
I don’t think it’s that ignorant a post; no names/no pack drill to protect the innocent, but I know very well an instance on Typhoon of some work being carried out to correct incorrect BAES documentation, which we traced and worked out BAE had taken and subsequently billed the MoD 4x for. Individually I like people at BAE, but their corporate ethos...
And agreed with regard to other companies, and there are some others I would but shouldn’t mention. Interestingly I’ve always had good experiences with Selex/Leonardo, but appreciate others may not have. I mention them specifically to show that it isn’t all bad, and because I don’t have anything to do with them currently.
I absolutely agree that MoD, individual Services and DE&S need to be far, far better at specifying reasonable and achievable Reqts, and then sticking to the plan. I’m now an RM, who knew?! And for clarity not working with BAES or Leonardo.
As for Tornado being kept on for display purposes? No plans and no chance. Much as I love the old bus, she was enough of a nightmare to keep going with a full team of support from RAF and industry engineers. Best put out to grass!
Nice to hear that!I don’t think it’s that ignorant a post; no names/no pack drill to protect the innocent, but I know very well an instance on Typhoon of some work being carried out to correct incorrect BAES documentation, which we traced and worked out BAE had taken and subsequently billed the MoD 4x for. Individually I like people at BAE, but their corporate ethos...
And agreed with regard to other companies, and there are some others I would but shouldn’t mention. Interestingly I’ve always had good experiences with Selex/Leonardo, but appreciate others may not have. I mention them specifically to show that it isn’t all bad, and because I don’t have anything to do with them currently.
I absolutely agree that MoD, individual Services and DE&S need to be far, far better at specifying reasonable and achievable Reqts, and then sticking to the plan. I’m now an RM, who knew?! And for clarity not working with BAES or Leonardo.
As for Tornado being kept on for display purposes? No plans and no chance. Much as I love the old bus, she was enough of a nightmare to keep going with a full team of support from RAF and industry engineers. Best put out to grass!
I think the UK/Europe could learn a think or two from our American cousins (let's ignore JSF for now
) but they do not fk about when it comes to their Prime contractors. Definitely high pressure working on their contracts but things move quickly and to plan.AndrewEH1 said:
I think the UK/Europe could learn a think or two from our American cousins (let's ignore JSF for now ) but they do not fk about when it comes to their Prime contractors. Definitely high pressure working on their contracts but things move quickly and to plan.
An example, please.) but they do not fk about when it comes to their Prime contractors. Definitely high pressure working on their contracts but things move quickly and to plan.Evanivitch said:
AndrewEH1 said:
I think the UK/Europe could learn a think or two from our American cousins (let's ignore JSF for now ) but they do not fk about when it comes to their Prime contractors. Definitely high pressure working on their contracts but things move quickly and to plan.
An example, please.) but they do not fk about when it comes to their Prime contractors. Definitely high pressure working on their contracts but things move quickly and to plan.If you've experienced differently to me that's fine! No two people will have the exact same experiences in life. Anyway, we're probably verging off topic
Edited by AndrewEH1 on Thursday 26th April 21:35
I think the whole military supply chain is absolutely crap and barely fit for purpose, the same can be said for engineering back up.
The more people involved, the more each layer want's their slice of the cake, and the more the price rises. Things like bags of blind rivets that come packaged by the hundred are split open and individually wrapped and charged out at the same price as a bag for each individual rivet!
Manufacturers supply crap maintenance manuals, then charge each time you need clarification on something, in fact the whole 'product' can be crap, yet the MOD sign off accepting it, then the manufacturer charges the customer to put it right!
Some project teams can be manned by people just seeing their time out before they get their pension and are almost impossible to work with.There seems to very little commercial awareness, things cost money, getting that bloke to fix something costs money.
All these huge inefficiencies add up, and they wonder why the defence budget is frittered away
No one is innocent here.
The more people involved, the more each layer want's their slice of the cake, and the more the price rises. Things like bags of blind rivets that come packaged by the hundred are split open and individually wrapped and charged out at the same price as a bag for each individual rivet!
Manufacturers supply crap maintenance manuals, then charge each time you need clarification on something, in fact the whole 'product' can be crap, yet the MOD sign off accepting it, then the manufacturer charges the customer to put it right!
Some project teams can be manned by people just seeing their time out before they get their pension and are almost impossible to work with.There seems to very little commercial awareness, things cost money, getting that bloke to fix something costs money.
All these huge inefficiencies add up, and they wonder why the defence budget is frittered away
No one is innocent here.
eccles said:
Things like bags of blind rivets that come packaged by the hundred are split open and individually wrapped and charged out at the same price as a bag for each individual rivet!
Do you need a CofC with that rivet? (yes) do you need someone to ensure that the rivet hasn't changed and that it still meets its original design specification (yes) do you need traceability to show exactly where the rivet came from (yes) do you need a DAOS approved organisation with the correct processes and procedures to monitor and sign off the damn rivet if you have to change supplier or material (yes) do you need an approved QA system to show you are doing the necessary things (yes) do you need someone monitoring and tracking changes in the applicable MRAs? and updating process as necessary (yes) the list goes on and on - it is no wonder the rivet is madly expensive.mebe said:
eccles said:
Things like bags of blind rivets that come packaged by the hundred are split open and individually wrapped and charged out at the same price as a bag for each individual rivet!
Do you need a CofC with that rivet? (yes) do you need someone to ensure that the rivet hasn't changed and that it still meets its original design specification (yes) do you need traceability to show exactly where the rivet came from (yes) do you need a DAOS approved organisation with the correct processes and procedures to monitor and sign off the damn rivet if you have to change supplier or material (yes) do you need an approved QA system to show you are doing the necessary things (yes) do you need someone monitoring and tracking changes in the applicable MRAs? and updating process as necessary (yes) the list goes on and on - it is no wonder the rivet is madly expensive.Ayahuasca said:
The mission of the BBMF is "is to maintain the priceless artefacts of our national heritage in airworthy condition in order to commemorate those who have fallen in the service of this country, to promote the modern day Air Force and to inspire the future generations."
Not a memorial specific to the BOB now, although that was its original purpose. It does not operate any jets, so I doubt it is going to start with a Tornado.
It was (briefly) renamed the RAFMF (Memorial Flight) in around 2012 or so, but people are so used to calling it 'BBMF' that it caused some confusion and they dropped it.Not a memorial specific to the BOB now, although that was its original purpose. It does not operate any jets, so I doubt it is going to start with a Tornado.
Out of interest, what is it that makes something like a Tornado too complex for a private enterprise to run?
I know the engines would need manufacturer support/refurbishment, but what about the other systems? I assume that the performance pushes the components to their limits, but something like a Tornado can't be that complex, can it?
Assume, of course, that they take on some trained maintenance crews and manage to negotiate the acquisition of the current kit that the operational units will have.
And who forces all that on the supplier?I'd say it's daft that they split the bag in the first place - consolidate the supply chain.
I know the engines would need manufacturer support/refurbishment, but what about the other systems? I assume that the performance pushes the components to their limits, but something like a Tornado can't be that complex, can it?
Assume, of course, that they take on some trained maintenance crews and manage to negotiate the acquisition of the current kit that the operational units will have.
Evanivitch said:
mebe said:
eccles said:
Things like bags of blind rivets that come packaged by the hundred are split open and individually wrapped and charged out at the same price as a bag for each individual rivet!
Do you need a CofC with that rivet? (yes) do you need someone to ensure that the rivet hasn't changed and that it still meets its original design specification (yes) do you need traceability to show exactly where the rivet came from (yes) do you need a DAOS approved organisation with the correct processes and procedures to monitor and sign off the damn rivet if you have to change supplier or material (yes) do you need an approved QA system to show you are doing the necessary things (yes) do you need someone monitoring and tracking changes in the applicable MRAs? and updating process as necessary (yes) the list goes on and on - it is no wonder the rivet is madly expensive.Gassing Station | Boats, Planes & Trains | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff