this just turned up at tobago
Discussion
Thee Postman Pat said:
Apples and oranges? Are you not confusing rudder and elevator authority? Or have I missed something?
I was trying to point out that on the C3 (stretched Herc) the tail authority was less both in pitch and yaw compared to the C1.People think about the stretched Hercs as having the stretch aft of the wings which, one would assume, would give greater tail authority. In fact the a/c were stretched by placing a 100" (8'4") plug forward of the wing and an 80" (6'8*) plug aft of the wing. Hence the loss in pitch and yaw control.
Ginetta G15 Girl said:
I have over 2000 hrs C-130K and have never known of a tail strike on rotate on a C3. I know of a number on C1 on Tac departures.
Indeed the C3 was very sluggish on rotate and particularly poor upon flare for landing despite what people might think about the longer fuselage/ greater elevator giving better authority . In actual fact the elevator control on the C3 was poor compared to the C1. Indeed IIRC Vmcg1 on C3 was some 7 kts higher than C1 which shows the tail limitation.
As a result the C3 rotated slowly and was never flared well.
Any C-130 Pilot should be able to 'grease' a landing on a short body; it's in the hands of the gods on a long body, its up to chance.
I'm intrigued as to how you know: " I know of one that was definitely an over rotation on take off."?
I'll reiterate, most incidents with Albert tail strikes were on landing and not on T/O.
Worst "I have wifi in the kitchen" post, ever.Indeed the C3 was very sluggish on rotate and particularly poor upon flare for landing despite what people might think about the longer fuselage/ greater elevator giving better authority . In actual fact the elevator control on the C3 was poor compared to the C1. Indeed IIRC Vmcg1 on C3 was some 7 kts higher than C1 which shows the tail limitation.
As a result the C3 rotated slowly and was never flared well.
Any C-130 Pilot should be able to 'grease' a landing on a short body; it's in the hands of the gods on a long body, its up to chance.
I'm intrigued as to how you know: " I know of one that was definitely an over rotation on take off."?
I'll reiterate, most incidents with Albert tail strikes were on landing and not on T/O.
Shuvi McTupya said:
Ginetta G15 Girl said:
I have over 2000 hrs C-130K and have never known of a tail strike on rotate on a C3. I know of a number on C1 on Tac departures.
Indeed the C3 was very sluggish on rotate and particularly poor upon flare for landing despite what people might think about the longer fuselage/ greater elevator giving better authority . In actual fact the elevator control on the C3 was poor compared to the C1. Indeed IIRC Vmcg1 on C3 was some 7 kts higher than C1 which shows the tail limitation.
As a result the C3 rotated slowly and was never flared well.
Any C-130 Pilot should be able to 'grease' a landing on a short body; it's in the hands of the gods on a long body, its up to chance.
I'm intrigued as to how you know: " I know of one that was definitely an over rotation on take off."?
I'll reiterate, most incidents with Albert tail strikes were on landing and not on T/O.
Worst "I have wifi in the kitchen" post, ever.Indeed the C3 was very sluggish on rotate and particularly poor upon flare for landing despite what people might think about the longer fuselage/ greater elevator giving better authority . In actual fact the elevator control on the C3 was poor compared to the C1. Indeed IIRC Vmcg1 on C3 was some 7 kts higher than C1 which shows the tail limitation.
As a result the C3 rotated slowly and was never flared well.
Any C-130 Pilot should be able to 'grease' a landing on a short body; it's in the hands of the gods on a long body, its up to chance.
I'm intrigued as to how you know: " I know of one that was definitely an over rotation on take off."?
I'll reiterate, most incidents with Albert tail strikes were on landing and not on T/O.
t post ever
Shuvi,
Explain to me just how many hours you have flying Hercs, both as a Co and as a Captain.
When you are done doing that, please explain to me how a Tac Landing is different from a normal landing.
No, no, don’t make it up as you go along, show me your working! Do it now.
Now explain to me how a Tac Landing at Night is different from a Tac Landing in the Day.
Now explain to me how a Tac Landing at Night on NVGs differs from a Tac Landing at night with lights.
What’s that? You can’t because you are an armchair eejit as never having done it?
Who’s the feckin’ eejit now with the stupid post?
Explain to me just how many hours you have flying Hercs, both as a Co and as a Captain.
When you are done doing that, please explain to me how a Tac Landing is different from a normal landing.
No, no, don’t make it up as you go along, show me your working! Do it now.
Now explain to me how a Tac Landing at Night is different from a Tac Landing in the Day.
Now explain to me how a Tac Landing at Night on NVGs differs from a Tac Landing at night with lights.
What’s that? You can’t because you are an armchair eejit as never having done it?
Who’s the feckin’ eejit now with the stupid post?
Ginetta G15 Girl said:
Shuvi,
Who’s the feckin’ eejit now with the stupid post?
To be honest, usually you. Remember this is a car forum, sometimes your posts are informative others you just seem to be turning threads into a pissing contest stating all your credentials and rattling off every abbreviation under the sun before you flounce off.Who’s the feckin’ eejit now with the stupid post?
Maybe take a chill pill yeah?
AndrewEH1 said:
To be honest, usually you. Remember this is a car forum, sometimes your posts are informative others you just seem to be turning threads into a pissing contest stating all your credentials and rattling off every abbreviation under the sun before you flounce off.
Maybe take a chill pill yeah?
No, this is the Boats, Planes and Trains forum of the PistonHead parish, which long since - and waaaay before you strolled up - stopped being an exclusively Car forum.Maybe take a chill pill yeah?
If you don't like that, and feel inadequate in the presence of domain experts - forthright or not - in particular forums, then please feel free to stroll back off again.
eharding said:
No, this is the Boats, Planes and Trains forum of the PistonHead parish, which long since - and waaaay before you strolled up - stopped being an exclusively Car forum.
If you don't like that, and feel inadequate in the presence of domain experts - forthright or not - in particular forums, then please feel free to stroll back off again.
Yeah, I could use that unavailable LIKE button around now tooIf you don't like that, and feel inadequate in the presence of domain experts - forthright or not - in particular forums, then please feel free to stroll back off again.
Have you seen now forthright it gets in other fora round this here parish
Try the Plod one for example, or get your climate changed
I much prefer it in here and take enjoyment from all the forthright views
AndrewEH1 said:
To be honest, usually you. Remember this is a car forum, sometimes your posts are informative others you just seem to be turning threads into a pissing contest stating all your credentials and rattling off every abbreviation under the sun before you flounce off.
Maybe take a chill pill yeah?
Maybe you should try understanding Military Flying afore you start sMaybe take a chill pill yeah?
te criticising people who have, you know, actually been military pilots? Maybe you should wind your feckin' neck in before you start telling us those who have wings on our chests to shut up. Maybe you should go there and get the T-Shirt before you think you are experts.Ginetta G15 Girl said:
Shuvi,
Explain to me just how many hours you have flying Hercs, both as a Co and as a Captain.
When you are done doing that, please explain to me how a Tac Landing is different from a normal landing.
No, no, don’t make it up as you go along, show me your working! Do it now.
Now explain to me how a Tac Landing at Night is different from a Tac Landing in the Day.
Now explain to me how a Tac Landing at Night on NVGs differs from a Tac Landing at night with lights.
What’s that? You can’t because you are an armchair eejit as never having done it?
Who’s the feckin’ eejit now with the stupid post?
I thought it was obvious that my post was supposed to be a joke..Explain to me just how many hours you have flying Hercs, both as a Co and as a Captain.
When you are done doing that, please explain to me how a Tac Landing is different from a normal landing.
No, no, don’t make it up as you go along, show me your working! Do it now.
Now explain to me how a Tac Landing at Night is different from a Tac Landing in the Day.
Now explain to me how a Tac Landing at Night on NVGs differs from a Tac Landing at night with lights.
What’s that? You can’t because you are an armchair eejit as never having done it?
Who’s the feckin’ eejit now with the stupid post?
Ah well.
eccles said:
MB140 said:
eccles said:
Ginetta G15 Girl said:
Where these J models or K models?
The RAF ones were K's, Dutch ones were shiny new H's.I’m not sure of the current make up of the fleet as I left Brize in 2015 when it was all being investigated as to the consequences of selling them off and just keeping the long version (mk4 I believe)
Ginetta G15 Girl said:
Maybe you should try understanding Military Flying afore you start ste criticising people who have, you know, actually been military pilots? Maybe you should wind your feckin' neck in before you start telling us those who have wings on our chests to shut up. Maybe you should go there and get the T-Shirt before you think you are experts.
Perhaps if you had less of a chip on your shoulder, we're a lot less defensively aggressive and realised that this is a forum for enjoyment and not somewhere for you to spout off about how absolutely amazing you are because you fly military transports it might be a better place? te criticising people who have, you know, actually been military pilots? Maybe you should wind your feckin' neck in before you start telling us those who have wings on our chests to shut up. Maybe you should go there and get the T-Shirt before you think you are experts.Lighten up ffs.
Ginetta G15 Girl said:
People think about the stretched Hercs as having the stretch aft of the wings which, one would assume, would give greater tail authority. In fact the a/c were stretched by placing a 100" (8'4") plug forward of the wing and an 80" (6'8*) plug aft of the wing. Hence the loss in pitch and yaw control.
I’m sorry but that logic/explanation doesn’t make sense. I suspect the manufacturer has attempted to keep the cg range similar to the shorter version unless the wing was modified. Even if the cg has moved forward 16 inches overall the moment arm from the cg to the tail has increased. A higher vmcg would suggest to me one of or a combination of increased thrust, smaller rudder or reduced rudder authority. The arm for the elevator has also increased but is presumably offset by increased weight plus maybe other design changes.Thee Postman Pat said:
Ginetta G15 Girl said:
People think about the stretched Hercs as having the stretch aft of the wings which, one would assume, would give greater tail authority. In fact the a/c were stretched by placing a 100" (8'4") plug forward of the wing and an 80" (6'8*) plug aft of the wing. Hence the loss in pitch and yaw control.
I’m sorry but that logic/explanation doesn’t make sense. I suspect the manufacturer has attempted to keep the cg range similar to the shorter version unless the wing was modified. Even if the cg has moved forward 16 inches overall the moment arm from the cg to the tail has increased. A higher vmcg would suggest to me one of or a combination of increased thrust, smaller rudder or reduced rudder authority. The arm for the elevator has also increased but is presumably offset by increased weight plus maybe other design changes.Remember at the front of the fuselage you have big heavy things like the cockpit and crew, the nose leg etc, at the aft end of the aircraft you just have the empennage, cargo door and ramp.
Tyre Smoke said:
Perhaps if you had less of a chip on your shoulder, we're a lot less defensively aggressive and realised that this is a forum for enjoyment and not somewhere for you to spout off about how absolutely amazing you are because you fly military transports it might be a better place?
Lighten up ffs.
Amen.Lighten up ffs.
We get USAF Globemasters drop into Panama every now and again. And also Homeland Security Orion P3Bs (with the big frisbees on top). Don!t know what the former are up to, but the latter are normally looking out for drug runners from Colombia.
On the hi/lo wing thing, I understand (looks nervously towards Ginetta) that one of the reasons that military transports usually have high wings is to keep the engines out of the way of foreign object debris from imperfect landing strips.
On the hi/lo wing thing, I understand (looks nervously towards Ginetta) that one of the reasons that military transports usually have high wings is to keep the engines out of the way of foreign object debris from imperfect landing strips.
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