Massive train timetabling amendments
Discussion
tight5 said:
Riley Blue said:
With the technology available today it's a bit surprising, to me at least, that trackside light signals are still used to warn of hazards ahead. I rarely have need to use trains but is under investment over a long period of time largely to blame for the UK's seemingly dysfunctional rail network?
You do know it's a government thing ?rs1952 said:
For those interested in the nittu-gritty of the Thameslink timetable, this has just been posted on another site:
Thanks for that. I wonder if they've changed their off peak pricing rules now - used to be you had to leave London before 4pm ( I think) to get the off peak price. If there's no train to Bedford between 1506 and 1606 then that makes things more difficult for returning day trippers.Paul said:
Thameslink have - finally - very quietly published an interim timetable. https://www.thameslinkrailway.com/travel-informati...
A quick look shows that the following gaps have become semi permanent.
Northbound (St Pancras)
No trains from London to Bedford from 10.06-10.51
No trains from London to Bedford from 13.21-14.06
No trains from London to Bedford from 15.06 to 16.06
No trains from London to Bedford from 20.21 to 21.36.
Numerous half hour gaps
There should be a minimum of four per hour at approx 15 minute intervals all day.
No other services serve Leagrave, Harlington and Flitwick (or Bedford in the Peaks
Southbound
No departures from Bedford between 14.05 and 15.05
No departures from Bedford between 16.44 and 17.28
No departures from Bedford between 21.49 and 23.35
Night (should be one or two per hour calling all stations from Bedford to London
Northbound roughly hourly service all night
Southbound No departures between 00:05 and 05:44
On the other line Aresley, Biggleswade, Sandy, Huntingdon and Peterborough only have an hourly offpeak service for much of the day with:
Northbound 90 min gap from 11.16 to 12.46
Northbound 90 min gap from 16.46 to 18.16 (Arlesey and Sandy only).
Southbound no trains between 05:26/05:34 and 07:26/07:34
No trains from Peterborough between 10:24 and 11:54
No trains from Peterborough between 15:54 and 17:24
No trains from Peterborough between 20:24 and 21:41
No trains from Peterborough between 21:41 and 22:54
Trains that are in the timetable are advertised as subject to short notice cancellation.
The majority of the trains above go to Gatwick/Horsham forming stopping trains between Purley and Horley via Redhill so those stations will be similarly affected.
A quick look shows that the following gaps have become semi permanent.
Northbound (St Pancras)
No trains from London to Bedford from 10.06-10.51
No trains from London to Bedford from 13.21-14.06
No trains from London to Bedford from 15.06 to 16.06
No trains from London to Bedford from 20.21 to 21.36.
Numerous half hour gaps
There should be a minimum of four per hour at approx 15 minute intervals all day.
No other services serve Leagrave, Harlington and Flitwick (or Bedford in the Peaks
Southbound
No departures from Bedford between 14.05 and 15.05
No departures from Bedford between 16.44 and 17.28
No departures from Bedford between 21.49 and 23.35
Night (should be one or two per hour calling all stations from Bedford to London
Northbound roughly hourly service all night
Southbound No departures between 00:05 and 05:44
On the other line Aresley, Biggleswade, Sandy, Huntingdon and Peterborough only have an hourly offpeak service for much of the day with:
Northbound 90 min gap from 11.16 to 12.46
Northbound 90 min gap from 16.46 to 18.16 (Arlesey and Sandy only).
Southbound no trains between 05:26/05:34 and 07:26/07:34
No trains from Peterborough between 10:24 and 11:54
No trains from Peterborough between 15:54 and 17:24
No trains from Peterborough between 20:24 and 21:41
No trains from Peterborough between 21:41 and 22:54
Trains that are in the timetable are advertised as subject to short notice cancellation.
The majority of the trains above go to Gatwick/Horsham forming stopping trains between Purley and Horley via Redhill so those stations will be similarly affected.
Greshamst said:
And I really hope that there is some extra compensation, as is supposed to be announced in July.
Because at the moment we're experiencing 60% of the normal service, but I'm still paying 100% of the £3.5k season ticket.
You're lucky. Mines 5k and the service has gone from really good to dire. They've also removed the old trains that had loads of seats and replaced them with ones with fabric covered planks for seats, more standing room and even less seating, constant breakdowns, less trains, massive delays.... and they'll also be raising the cost of my ticket when I come to renew!Because at the moment we're experiencing 60% of the normal service, but I'm still paying 100% of the £3.5k season ticket.
tight5 said:
TheLimla said:
Really am starting to wonder if the train companies will sort this mess out or if this is it now! Turn up to a station and keep your fingers crossed that a train is going your way!
You haven't read all this thread, have you ?Riley Blue said:
With the technology available today it's a bit surprising, to me at least, that trackside light signals are still used to warn of hazards ahead. I rarely have need to use trains but is under investment over a long period of time largely to blame for the UK's seemingly dysfunctional rail network?
You do know it's a government thing ?anonymous said:
[redacted]
Test area on the Hertford loop, too.
P5BNij said:
Under colour light signalling the normal sequence for being brought to a stand is green / double yellow / single yellow red with four aspect signalling and green / single yellow / red with three aspect signalling.
Steady greens ?How quaint !
Zippee said:
You're lucky. Mines 5k and the service has gone from really good to dire. They've also removed the old trains that had loads of seats and replaced them with ones with fabric covered planks for seats, more standing room and even less seating, constant breakdowns, less trains, massive delays.... and they'll also be raising the cost of my ticket when I come to renew!
I feel your pain on the seats. I always get backache on the way home (when I manage to get a seat) because the ironing boards they've put in appear to be some form of slow torture. And yes, a bit annoying that the new trains and ticket increases are for LESS seats, however I do think this was the right choice. As annoying as it is to stand, at least when you do have to stand it's not as uncomfortable as it used to be, and without as much issues of people blocking the aisles, or not being able to get past.
Greshamst said:
legzr1 said:
On Tuesday I drove over lines still using semaphore signalling with absolute block which hasn’t changed much since Victorian times. Mechanical, prone to failure and no AWS or TPWS safety systems. It hasn’t even got colour light signals on most of the route so how long before ERTMS is implemented?
In English please? (For the small minority who don't drive trains for a living)
AWS - Automatic warning system
TPWS - Train Protection and Warning System
ERTMS - European Rail Traffic Management System
Google for more details. Oversimplification - various built in safety systems. AWS has been around in some form sunce the 1930s, the others are more recent.
rs1952 said:
Semaphore signaling - the old way of doing things as shown in rhe photo below taken at Southampton in 1967
Oversimplification - various built in safety systems.
A safety system on the semaphores being provided by gravity ... the weight of the arm would cause the signal to drop to the danger (horizontal) position if a rod broke. Except of course on God's Wonderful Railway, where the signal was horizontal (for danger) and down for OK - so relied on a counterbalance to cause the arm to rise !Oversimplification - various built in safety systems.
What a day yesterday was.
Waiting for a class 6 at Millerhill on their hottest day of the year.
Train was late in because of a sinkhole, SLW has been in for 2 months.
I've had 3 years worth of UV waiting for it.
The driver I've relieved said the AC wasn't working
, but the dial had gone a little too far and a small turn got it working.
I've left the yard and nearly forgot to input my number into QTRON.
Out onto the main and there are 3 passenger trains stopped, loads of TDAs.
Then stopped twice for TC failures.
To cap it all, my relief driver (The Commander) went to the South end of Tyne Yard when I was getting relieved on the SL (can only relive at the North end), so he had a nice little walk and I wasn't gonna wait !
Edit to add
As there is talk of some fast stuff going North, I was also trying to learn the OHNS locations while driving (anyone leave it to APC ?).
Waiting for a class 6 at Millerhill on their hottest day of the year.
Train was late in because of a sinkhole, SLW has been in for 2 months.
I've had 3 years worth of UV waiting for it.
The driver I've relieved said the AC wasn't working
, but the dial had gone a little too far and a small turn got it working.I've left the yard and nearly forgot to input my number into QTRON.
Out onto the main and there are 3 passenger trains stopped, loads of TDAs.
Then stopped twice for TC failures.
To cap it all, my relief driver (The Commander) went to the South end of Tyne Yard when I was getting relieved on the SL (can only relive at the North end), so he had a nice little walk and I wasn't gonna wait !
Edit to add
As there is talk of some fast stuff going North, I was also trying to learn the OHNS locations while driving (anyone leave it to APC ?).
Edited by tight5 on Friday 29th June 16:22
Greshamst said:
Zippee said:
You're lucky. Mines 5k and the service has gone from really good to dire. They've also removed the old trains that had loads of seats and replaced them with ones with fabric covered planks for seats, more standing room and even less seating, constant breakdowns, less trains, massive delays.... and they'll also be raising the cost of my ticket when I come to renew!
I feel your pain on the seats. I always get backache on the way home (when I manage to get a seat) because the ironing boards they've put in appear to be some form of slow torture. And yes, a bit annoying that the new trains and ticket increases are for LESS seats, however I do think this was the right choice. As annoying as it is to stand, at least when you do have to stand it's not as uncomfortable as it used to be, and without as much issues of people blocking the aisles, or not being able to get past.
I had to take the train from Cambridge to Kings Cross and back again, with both journeys during rush hour for the first time since the new timetable came in.
On the journey into London, the number of the new Class 700 trains sat in sidings seemed to be testament to the fact there are still major problems. This was confirmed by the return journey: 3 of the Great Northern/Thameslink trains on the departure board were cancelled, including a Cambridge service, so the train I was on was particularly crowded. A few people did get off just before departure when the (very apologetic) driver announced that although the station announcements had said Stevenage passengers could board this train, in fact it would not now be stopping at Stevenage.
On the journey into London, the number of the new Class 700 trains sat in sidings seemed to be testament to the fact there are still major problems. This was confirmed by the return journey: 3 of the Great Northern/Thameslink trains on the departure board were cancelled, including a Cambridge service, so the train I was on was particularly crowded. A few people did get off just before departure when the (very apologetic) driver announced that although the station announcements had said Stevenage passengers could board this train, in fact it would not now be stopping at Stevenage.
For anybody directly affected or just interested, and they've got an hour or so to spare, here is the latest update from GTR
Update from Govia Thameslink and Network Rail since 20th May (update number 9)
29th June 2018
Dear Graham
We are writing to provide you with an update regarding the latest progress with the current service provision and customer information. We have been meeting some of you and have have also been emailing and phoning others throughout the past few weeks so thank you for your feedback.
Apology
We know that the service we have been running is unacceptable and we understand how much hardship this has caused many people. We will be running national and local ads to apologise directly to passengers starting from next week as well as handing out leaflets at stations. To see the apology, please click here.
Interim timetable 15th July
We are working to introduce a more dependable interim weekday timetable, which will be put in place on the 15th July. This will prioritise peak trains, giving customers more certainty to plan journeys to and from work. Although there may be fewer off peak trains, these will be more stable and reliable than present ones.
We have some more work to do before sharing that plan with you, including the standard industry scrutiny process with Trade Unions, but hope to be in a position to provide you with further information in the very near future.
Current Weekday Services
PDF’s of the current timetables are available on our websites:
Thameslink – Click here
Great Northern – Click here
Southern – Click here
Gatwick Express – Click here
While we develop the interim July timetable, we continue to ask passengers to check online journey planners on the day of travel. We would be grateful if you could use your channels to help us encourage customers to use the online web form to claim for the compensations they might be entitled to if their journey is delayed by 15 minutes or more.
Information about how to claim DR is available online here.
Weekend services
Timetables for weekend services are available in PDF format from our websites. In addition to this, journey planners are being uploaded by 8pm the day before travel (e.g. Saturday’s timetable is available from Friday 8pm).
1st Class declassification – 29th June – 15th July
From today, Friday 29 June, first class will be declassified on all Thameslink and Great Northern services during peak journey times to create more space for passengers. This will continue until the interim timetable is implemented on 15 July which will prioritise peak hours services and reduce service gaps. The rear carriage of all 700 trains are already permanently declassified.
For the declassification, the peaks are defined as follows (based on when the service departs the station);
The AM peak is from 6.30am to 9.30am
The PM peak is from 4.00pm to 7.15pm
Passengers who hold a first class season ticket can claim individually for the journeys they have made, or claim for all affected journeys in a single application after the 15 July. A new form will be available then.
We appreciate that customers may already hold a Thameslink or Great Northern first class season ticket and they will be able to claim the difference in cost for journeys made where first class was declassified. This can be found by clicking this link.
Hot weather
see the video here
With the ongoing hot weather, Network Rail has activated its ‘extreme weather action teams’ (EWATs) across the country. On very sunny days, rails in direct sunshine can be as much as 20 degrees centigrade above air temperature causing the steel to expand markedly and could, if not carefully monitored and action taken, buckle causing travel disruption.
Our engineers and specialist extreme weather teams are monitoring track-side temperatures and vulnerable locations and will, if necessary, introduce temporary speed restrictions during the hottest part of the day to keep trains running, albeit more slowly than normal.
For more information, please click here.
Other issues affecting service
These are the Key infrastructure issues that affected the service this week. We thought it would be useful for you to have the information to hand as you may receive enquiries about them.
On Saturday 23 June Moorgate station was evacuated at 1648 following reports of smoke at the end of the platform – a train was also evacuated. The fire brigade attended and the station reopened at 17.29.
On Monday 25 June several “track circuits” which tell the signaller where trains are on the network failed in the Potters Bar area at 1637. Fault teams attended several sites and were able to return the network for normal operation ay 1907.
In the early hours of the morning of 26 June Moorgate station team reported that the platform lighting was on back-up power and was not bright enough for passengers to use safely. The cause was traced to an external power supply problem which was fixed by UK Power Networks shortly before 0900. An interim plan was in place while the repair work was carried out.
On 22 June at 20.25 a train hit a person at Purley Oaks station causing severe delay Clean up was complete and lines open at 2210 but a passenger was taken ill on board a train at approximately 2200 which further delayed the full resumption of services.
Overcrowding
In this hot weather it can be particularly difficult for passengers if there is overcrowding on their train and at stations. We want to reassure you and our passengers that all our staff are trained to safely manage any situations of overcrowding. Each station has its own Local Incident Response plan, covering a range of scenarios including overcrowding.
All our staff are briefed and trained on the Local Incident Response Plan including new members of staff. Prior to the introduction of the new timetable in May, trials were undertaken at stations on the Thameslink and Great Northern routes to simulate overcrowding and incident plans were updated, where necessary. Since the introduction of the new timetable and the subsequent service issues we have faced, our safety team have been monitoring areas where overcrowding is potentially causing concerns and are working with individual station staff to manage this.
Short Forms
The demands of the driver route learning schedule impacts on our ability to make all the stock moves required to deliver every service at full length. Sadly this means effecting a balancing act between our capacity to run all the scheduled services and running them at full length. We are currently exhausting all driver diagrams possible to minimise cancellations during the week and to maintain the concurrent route learning schedule that will ultimately resolve the present difficulties. We are monitoring the number of services that consist of fewer carriages than normal and the trend is moving downwards.
InTouch
Your usual InTouch has been on hold while we are stabilising our service. Instead we are sending you regular updates as and when necessary. This will begin again very soon and any ideas for content or presentation will be welcomed.
We sincerely apologise for the inconvenience that has been caused to you and passengers. We will continue to provide regular updates, please get in touch if you need any further information in the meantime.
Kind regards
Nick Brown
COO
Govia Thameslink Railway
John Halsall
Route Managing Director
Network Rail South East
Update from Govia Thameslink and Network Rail since 20th May (update number 9)
29th June 2018
Dear Graham
We are writing to provide you with an update regarding the latest progress with the current service provision and customer information. We have been meeting some of you and have have also been emailing and phoning others throughout the past few weeks so thank you for your feedback.
Apology
We know that the service we have been running is unacceptable and we understand how much hardship this has caused many people. We will be running national and local ads to apologise directly to passengers starting from next week as well as handing out leaflets at stations. To see the apology, please click here.
Interim timetable 15th July
We are working to introduce a more dependable interim weekday timetable, which will be put in place on the 15th July. This will prioritise peak trains, giving customers more certainty to plan journeys to and from work. Although there may be fewer off peak trains, these will be more stable and reliable than present ones.
We have some more work to do before sharing that plan with you, including the standard industry scrutiny process with Trade Unions, but hope to be in a position to provide you with further information in the very near future.
Current Weekday Services
PDF’s of the current timetables are available on our websites:
Thameslink – Click here
Great Northern – Click here
Southern – Click here
Gatwick Express – Click here
While we develop the interim July timetable, we continue to ask passengers to check online journey planners on the day of travel. We would be grateful if you could use your channels to help us encourage customers to use the online web form to claim for the compensations they might be entitled to if their journey is delayed by 15 minutes or more.
Information about how to claim DR is available online here.
Weekend services
Timetables for weekend services are available in PDF format from our websites. In addition to this, journey planners are being uploaded by 8pm the day before travel (e.g. Saturday’s timetable is available from Friday 8pm).
1st Class declassification – 29th June – 15th July
From today, Friday 29 June, first class will be declassified on all Thameslink and Great Northern services during peak journey times to create more space for passengers. This will continue until the interim timetable is implemented on 15 July which will prioritise peak hours services and reduce service gaps. The rear carriage of all 700 trains are already permanently declassified.
For the declassification, the peaks are defined as follows (based on when the service departs the station);
The AM peak is from 6.30am to 9.30am
The PM peak is from 4.00pm to 7.15pm
Passengers who hold a first class season ticket can claim individually for the journeys they have made, or claim for all affected journeys in a single application after the 15 July. A new form will be available then.
We appreciate that customers may already hold a Thameslink or Great Northern first class season ticket and they will be able to claim the difference in cost for journeys made where first class was declassified. This can be found by clicking this link.
Hot weather
see the video here
With the ongoing hot weather, Network Rail has activated its ‘extreme weather action teams’ (EWATs) across the country. On very sunny days, rails in direct sunshine can be as much as 20 degrees centigrade above air temperature causing the steel to expand markedly and could, if not carefully monitored and action taken, buckle causing travel disruption.
Our engineers and specialist extreme weather teams are monitoring track-side temperatures and vulnerable locations and will, if necessary, introduce temporary speed restrictions during the hottest part of the day to keep trains running, albeit more slowly than normal.
For more information, please click here.
Other issues affecting service
These are the Key infrastructure issues that affected the service this week. We thought it would be useful for you to have the information to hand as you may receive enquiries about them.
On Saturday 23 June Moorgate station was evacuated at 1648 following reports of smoke at the end of the platform – a train was also evacuated. The fire brigade attended and the station reopened at 17.29.
On Monday 25 June several “track circuits” which tell the signaller where trains are on the network failed in the Potters Bar area at 1637. Fault teams attended several sites and were able to return the network for normal operation ay 1907.
In the early hours of the morning of 26 June Moorgate station team reported that the platform lighting was on back-up power and was not bright enough for passengers to use safely. The cause was traced to an external power supply problem which was fixed by UK Power Networks shortly before 0900. An interim plan was in place while the repair work was carried out.
On 22 June at 20.25 a train hit a person at Purley Oaks station causing severe delay Clean up was complete and lines open at 2210 but a passenger was taken ill on board a train at approximately 2200 which further delayed the full resumption of services.
Overcrowding
In this hot weather it can be particularly difficult for passengers if there is overcrowding on their train and at stations. We want to reassure you and our passengers that all our staff are trained to safely manage any situations of overcrowding. Each station has its own Local Incident Response plan, covering a range of scenarios including overcrowding.
All our staff are briefed and trained on the Local Incident Response Plan including new members of staff. Prior to the introduction of the new timetable in May, trials were undertaken at stations on the Thameslink and Great Northern routes to simulate overcrowding and incident plans were updated, where necessary. Since the introduction of the new timetable and the subsequent service issues we have faced, our safety team have been monitoring areas where overcrowding is potentially causing concerns and are working with individual station staff to manage this.
Short Forms
The demands of the driver route learning schedule impacts on our ability to make all the stock moves required to deliver every service at full length. Sadly this means effecting a balancing act between our capacity to run all the scheduled services and running them at full length. We are currently exhausting all driver diagrams possible to minimise cancellations during the week and to maintain the concurrent route learning schedule that will ultimately resolve the present difficulties. We are monitoring the number of services that consist of fewer carriages than normal and the trend is moving downwards.
InTouch
Your usual InTouch has been on hold while we are stabilising our service. Instead we are sending you regular updates as and when necessary. This will begin again very soon and any ideas for content or presentation will be welcomed.
We sincerely apologise for the inconvenience that has been caused to you and passengers. We will continue to provide regular updates, please get in touch if you need any further information in the meantime.
Kind regards
Nick Brown
COO
Govia Thameslink Railway
John Halsall
Route Managing Director
Network Rail South East
tight5 said:
TheLimla said:
Forgive my pessimism!!
Forgiven.https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-44671423
TheLimla said:
Pessimism now turned to optimism
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-44671423
How would that help, just out of interest? So the franchise moves into temporary government ownership... all that means is that every level of management below executive remains exactly as it has been throughout the current debacle.https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-44671423
And all the issues of route knowledge, inadequate pathway planning, insufficient stock stabling, displacement of driver depots, conflict with other TOC services, etc etc, remain undressed
Nik da Greek said:
TheLimla said:
Pessimism now turned to optimism
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-44671423
How would that help, just out of interest? So the franchise moves into temporary government ownership... all that means is that every level of management below executive remains exactly as it has been throughout the current debacle.https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-44671423
And all the issues of route knowledge, inadequate pathway planning, insufficient stock stabling, displacement of driver depots, conflict with other TOC services, etc etc, remain undressed
TheLimla said:
he other option is that Govia uses the two weeks to drastically improve what currently is a shambolic service. If they can't do that then maybe they don't deserve to run the franchise. im just hoping for a better service, considering what I pay I don't think that's too much to ask for.
I wouldn't argue at all that Govia don't deserve to lose the franchise... and be very publicly punished for the current shambles. All I'm saying is that stripping the franchise will achieve nothing towards the service running better. The palace stays the same, only the flag on the top changesGassing Station | Boats, Planes & Trains | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff