RAF & Navy hardware looking quite modern nowadays
Discussion
citizensm1th said:
AndrewEH1 said:
RizzoTheRat said:
AJAX is the big one, coming in initially to replace CVR(T), but potentially being a family of vehicles that definitely aren't FRES.
Warrior's getting upgraded, the biggest difference being the new turret and same 40mm gun as AJAX, giving it the ability to fire on the move, and there's a Challenger 2 upgrade on the way.
All of the above have had a lot of delays though.
Just been reading up on the Challenger 2, that is some serious piece of kit especially that armour!Warrior's getting upgraded, the biggest difference being the new turret and same 40mm gun as AJAX, giving it the ability to fire on the move, and there's a Challenger 2 upgrade on the way.
All of the above have had a lot of delays though.
For once MOD got something right , a little part of me would love to know just how it would fair against the russian MBT's it was designed to combat.
The gun is fine although being rifled it was a bit old fashioned even when new; everyone else was piling onto the smoothbore bandwagon, while we retained rifling(I think) because the tankies liked HESH and HESH only works with rifling. I suspect budget squeeze might put paid to a smoothbore make-over for the C2, armour and electronics upgrades and whizzbang anti-missile systems probably being more of a priority.
Ginetta G15 Girl said:
jimbobsimmonds said:
Why exactly (please don't shout at me. Just curious!)
Down range performance of the 16" barrel means that the 5,56 round muzzle velocity is too slow.Quick word on the L85 though, it did what I needed, when I needed it, 99% of the time. For some reason the stoner stuff seems to "fit" me a little better. But that's just me... We are all different. (same reason I prefer the G3 to the SLR
)citizensm1th said:
[clarkson] arguably the best main battle tank in the world [/clarkson]
When it entered service yes, now not so much. Its not had the continual trickle of upgrades needed to keep it there. Iraq and Afganistan meant we couldn't afford too.The upgrade will help, but just like the AWAC's fleet we're approaching the point where its cheaper to bin them and buy new. The gun is outdated, no one else uses a rifled gun anymore, meaning amo is expensive. Changing to a smooth-bore means more hitting power, and more plentiful cheaper rounds.
citizensm1th said:
[clarkson] arguably the best main battle tank in the world [/clarkson]
For once MOD got something right , a little part of me would love to know just how it would fair against the russian MBT's it was designed to combat.
But poor reliability and maintainability, I understand from a MoD senior official who was part of the armoured vehicle IPT a few years agoFor once MOD got something right , a little part of me would love to know just how it would fair against the russian MBT's it was designed to combat.
DMN said:
Changing to a smooth-bore means more hitting power, and more plentiful cheaper rounds.
Interesting, but I worked with a guy recently who was involved in the smooth bore v rifled tank gun trials in the 80s (?) and he reckoned that the3 accuracy of the discarding sabot smoothbore rounds was woeful in comparison to the rifled gun.Yes the acuracy isn't as good. CR2 has the record for the longest range kill for a reason.
With rifling, some of the charge power escapes past the shell. As a smoothbore shell fits better, less of the charges power can escape and instead goes into giving the shell a better shove. Rheinmetall have managed to squeeze a smoothbore into a CR2, but the MOD won't pay for it (yet).
https://www.quora.com/Between-the-British-Challeng...
https://below-the-turret-ring.blogspot.co.uk/2016/...
https://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/rheinmetall-bids-u...
With rifling, some of the charge power escapes past the shell. As a smoothbore shell fits better, less of the charges power can escape and instead goes into giving the shell a better shove. Rheinmetall have managed to squeeze a smoothbore into a CR2, but the MOD won't pay for it (yet).
https://www.quora.com/Between-the-British-Challeng...
https://below-the-turret-ring.blogspot.co.uk/2016/...
https://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/rheinmetall-bids-u...
Edited by DMN on Friday 25th May 12:17
Edited by DMN on Friday 25th May 12:18
jimbobsimmonds said:
Ginetta G15 Girl said:
I don't take being calld a 'Crab' an insult - In which case that is fine. I can stay in the best hotels TYVM! I fundamentally disagree with you about the L85 though, I like the weapon and think the M4 outside FIBUA is a POS]. I'm not going to take s
te as a SAAI though. 
Why exactly (please don't shout at me. Just curious!)te as a SAAI though. If the SA80 is so good, why is the SAS normally pictured with the American kit - even in the desert where engagements can happen at long ranges?
Ayahuasca said:
jimbobsimmonds said:
Ginetta G15 Girl said:
I don't take being calld a 'Crab' an insult - In which case that is fine. I can stay in the best hotels TYVM! I fundamentally disagree with you about the L85 though, I like the weapon and think the M4 outside FIBUA is a POS]. I'm not going to take ste as a SAAI though.
Why exactly (please don't shout at me. Just curious!)te as a SAAI though. If the SA80 is so good, why is the SAS normally pictured with the American kit - even in the desert where engagements can happen at long ranges?
One of the big reasons western armies went for the assault rifle option over the battlefield rifle i believe is that it was felt that a shorter rifle would be better for a mechanised army to enable ingress and egress from APC's, a bullpup type weapon enables you to keep a full length barrel but compromises other aspects of the weapon.
One reason that trooper is using a m16 is possibly that at the time that picture was taken the ugl was not an option for the l85 but then the SAS do like to be different.
Ayahuasca said:
jimbobsimmonds said:
Ginetta G15 Girl said:
I don't take being calld a 'Crab' an insult - In which case that is fine. I can stay in the best hotels TYVM! I fundamentally disagree with you about the L85 though, I like the weapon and think the M4 outside FIBUA is a POS]. I'm not going to take ste as a SAAI though.
Why exactly (please don't shout at me. Just curious!)te as a SAAI though. If the SA80 is so good, why is the SAS normally pictured with the American kit - even in the desert where engagements can happen at long ranges?
You actually have a wee bit extra reach with the m16, depending on what knife you stick on the front of it....along with a higher velocity to allow the bullet to "work" properly..
Edited by Kccv23highliftcam on Saturday 26th May 17:55
citizensm1th said:
AndrewEH1 said:
RizzoTheRat said:
AJAX is the big one, coming in initially to replace CVR(T), but potentially being a family of vehicles that definitely aren't FRES.
Warrior's getting upgraded, the biggest difference being the new turret and same 40mm gun as AJAX, giving it the ability to fire on the move, and there's a Challenger 2 upgrade on the way.
All of the above have had a lot of delays though.
Just been reading up on the Challenger 2, that is some serious piece of kit especially that armour!Warrior's getting upgraded, the biggest difference being the new turret and same 40mm gun as AJAX, giving it the ability to fire on the move, and there's a Challenger 2 upgrade on the way.
All of the above have had a lot of delays though.
For once MOD got something right , a little part of me would love to know just how it would fair against the russian MBT's it was designed to combat.
Just to burst your bubble...Old, Old, Old.
Bit like the TornadoGR4, apply dibs and dobs whilst screwing the customer for capability sustainment BUT do nothing to actually IMPROVE the basic machine...
Edited by Kccv23highliftcam on Saturday 26th May 18:25
LotusOmega375D said:
How's the Army doing in comparison? Maybe its turn for a spending spree?
Army spent 15 years buying very expensive UOR projects that now they don't want, but they have a lot of new kit on way or recently in Service.Watchkeeper UAS - Late and expensive British version of an Israeli design made of British parts!
Challenger 2 LEP - Upgrade to address obsolescence, but might see performance improvements. No one really knows how deep army will reach into pockets.
AJAX - Expensive and an un-British fighty-recce vehicle. But tremendous capability.
MIV - 8x8 wagons to provide fast medium weight infantry mobility. Could have a 40mm cannon, probably won't.
Warrior CSP - Not yet on production, but an upgrade to the popular but dated Warrior system. Also uses CT40 cannon which is a huge improvement over old 30 mm.
MRV-P Part 1 - Foxhound/Snatch replacement. American Oshkosh JLTV platform (Hummer replacement) being purchased.
MRV-P Part 2 - 6x6 wagon to provide ambulance and command variant.
Apache rebuilds.
SA80A3 upgrade
BOWMAN next generation communication systems.
Upgraded ground based air defence systems.
But what is missing is no planned upgrades to artillery systems. No long term strategy for Challenger 2 replacement. And most importantly of all, the Army is toxic right now and they can't recruit or retain the numbers they need.
Edited by Evanivitch on Sunday 27th May 12:44
Kccv23highliftcam said:
Bit like the TornadoGR4, apply dibs and dobs whilst screwing the customer for capability sustainment BUT do nothing to actually IMPROVE the basic machine...
Who's screwing the customer? The companies working to the MoD brief?Edited by Kccv23highliftcam on Saturday 26th May 18:25
Ian Lancs said:
Or how about a Customer with unrealistic expectations?
Indeed.https://www.defensenews.com/air/2018/01/25/pentago...
https://breakingdefense.com/2018/01/f-35-problems-...
https://www.rt.com/usa/416916-f35-pentagon-operati...
http://www.news.com.au/technology/innovation/milit...
http://www.dote.osd.mil/pub/reports/FY2016/pdf/dod...
http://www.defense-aerospace.com/articles-view/fea...
Kccv23highliftcam said:
Bit like the TornadoGR4, apply dibs and dobs whilst screwing the customer for capability sustainment BUT do nothing to actually IMPROVE the basic machine...
What could you do to improve the basic machine which was designed about forty-five years ago? (serious question btw, not being sarky)Kccv23highliftcam said:
Just to burst your bubble...Old, Old, Old.
Bit like the TornadoGR4, apply dibs and dobs whilst screwing the customer for capability sustainment BUT do nothing to actually IMPROVE the basic machine...
Edited by Kccv23highliftcam on Saturday 26th May 18:25
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