The Phantom - How Good was it Really?
Discussion
Watched the contentiously entitled Classic British Jets: Phantom on Amazon Prime yesterday.
An interesting programme, albeit a bit dated (made c1999).
I seem to recall (possibly incorrectly) some unflattering comments on PH threads about this aircraft.
The RAF pilots interviewed had nothing but praise for it though. Maybe as a result of the alternatives of the day.
So, was it really the outstanding, multi-role box-ticker?
Really surprised that Luftwaffe were expected to use them well into the 21st C. Even more so were the comments from the RAF chap seconded to them, about the air-to-air tactics.
The TSR-2 got a mention as well.
An interesting programme, albeit a bit dated (made c1999).
I seem to recall (possibly incorrectly) some unflattering comments on PH threads about this aircraft.
The RAF pilots interviewed had nothing but praise for it though. Maybe as a result of the alternatives of the day.
So, was it really the outstanding, multi-role box-ticker?
Really surprised that Luftwaffe were expected to use them well into the 21st C. Even more so were the comments from the RAF chap seconded to them, about the air-to-air tactics.
The TSR-2 got a mention as well.
Used to go to RAF ( USAF) Alconbury for the airshows. The stars of every show were the lightinings bat along the runway and dissappearvertically upwards on reheat at warp speed, and the Vulcan that seemed to be about 20ft off and then wing waggle as it peeled off and away back to Wyton.They ran IIRC RF4E with a pointy nose to house the cameras. Later i got a pass each Sat to go and watch the inter base American football games
Still think they are lovely looking craft
Still think they are lovely looking craft
I wouldn't go so far. I actually think the true ancestor of the F-14 was the North American A-5 Vigilante. Indeed, in it's earlier design configuration, the A-5 had twin fins - although a single fin was selected before any metal was cut.
The Phantom to me shows a gradual evolution from all the previous McDonnell jet designs - starting with the F1H Phantom I through the F2H Banshee, the F3H Demon and the F-101 Voodoo.
If you look at the mock up of the original Phantom II it looks even more like what went before -
As you can see, in its earlier form, the Phantom lacked the upturned outer wings and the anhedral tailplanes.
The Phantom to me shows a gradual evolution from all the previous McDonnell jet designs - starting with the F1H Phantom I through the F2H Banshee, the F3H Demon and the F-101 Voodoo.
If you look at the mock up of the original Phantom II it looks even more like what went before -
As you can see, in its earlier form, the Phantom lacked the upturned outer wings and the anhedral tailplanes.
If you ever find yourself in Northern Ireland, it's worth arranging a visit to the Ulster Aviation Society at Maze long Kesh (due to politics over the site they are based on they can't open as a proper museum, which is a shame as they have a great collection). they have just finished restoring their FG.1 Phantom into FAA colours and it looks stunning.
Eric Mc said:
Indeed it was. Definitely not a "Classic British" aircraft - although the versions built for the RN and the RAF were heavily Anglicised to the point that they were pretty unique.
Apparently, the modifications to accommodate the RR Spey engines resulted in a less efficient aircraft.Smiler. said:
Eric Mc said:
Indeed it was. Definitely not a "Classic British" aircraft - although the versions built for the RN and the RAF were heavily Anglicised to the point that they were pretty unique.
Apparently, the modifications to accommodate the RR Spey engines resulted in a less efficient aircraft.Given that the original F-4 purchase was for the RN to operate off the Eagle and Ark, these being a lot smaller than the US carriers, it was deemed the extra thrust of the Spey was a sensible choice......plus it meant UK engines, rather than US engines, which at the time, we had never operated a US jet engine a/c in service, so you can see the arguments in the 'for' side.
The Spey engine F-4 was better at low level than the J79 engine which when the UK was part turned over to the RAF when TSR.2 was canned, and they decided not to modify Eagle to operate the beast, the RAF used the F-4 in the A-G role, so again, the Spey being better at low level wasn't an issue. The Spey was significantly less 'smokey' than the J-79, which when blatting around the German border at low level was an advantage.
It was only in the later years when all the RAF F-4 were used in the AD role that the disadvantage of the Spey was shown, this being even more shown up, when the UK bought 15 refurbished ex-USN F-4 with the J79 to re-activate 74 Sqn with.
In the AD role, the F-4J(UK) was clearly the best of the fleet, as the J79 was a much better high level engine, pushing a less draggy airframe.
aeropilot said:
Yes and no.
Given that the original F-4 purchase was for the RN to operate off the Eagle and Ark, these being a lot smaller than the US carriers, it was deemed the extra thrust of the Spey was a sensible choice......plus it meant UK engines, rather than US engines, which at the time, we had never operated a US jet engine a/c in service, so you can see the arguments in the 'for' side.
The Spey engine F-4 was better at low level than the J79 engine which when the UK was part turned over to the RAF when TSR.2 was canned, and they decided not to modify Eagle to operate the beast, the RAF used the F-4 in the A-G role, so again, the Spey being better at low level wasn't an issue. The Spey was significantly less 'smokey' than the J-79, which when blatting around the German border at low level was an advantage.
It was only in the later years when all the RAF F-4 were used in the AD role that the disadvantage of the Spey was shown, this being even more shown up, when the UK bought 15 refurbished ex-USN F-4 with the J79 to re-activate 74 Sqn with.
In the AD role, the F-4J(UK) was clearly the best of the fleet, as the J79 was a much better high level engine, pushing a less draggy airframe.
Given that the original F-4 purchase was for the RN to operate off the Eagle and Ark, these being a lot smaller than the US carriers, it was deemed the extra thrust of the Spey was a sensible choice......plus it meant UK engines, rather than US engines, which at the time, we had never operated a US jet engine a/c in service, so you can see the arguments in the 'for' side.
The Spey engine F-4 was better at low level than the J79 engine which when the UK was part turned over to the RAF when TSR.2 was canned, and they decided not to modify Eagle to operate the beast, the RAF used the F-4 in the A-G role, so again, the Spey being better at low level wasn't an issue. The Spey was significantly less 'smokey' than the J-79, which when blatting around the German border at low level was an advantage.
It was only in the later years when all the RAF F-4 were used in the AD role that the disadvantage of the Spey was shown, this being even more shown up, when the UK bought 15 refurbished ex-USN F-4 with the J79 to re-activate 74 Sqn with.
In the AD role, the F-4J(UK) was clearly the best of the fleet, as the J79 was a much better high level engine, pushing a less draggy airframe.
Smiler. said:
Eric Mc said:
Indeed it was. Definitely not a "Classic British" aircraft - although the versions built for the RN and the RAF were heavily Anglicised to the point that they were pretty unique.
Apparently, the modifications to accommodate the RR Spey engines resulted in a less efficient aircraft.Edited by Mave on Monday 21st May 14:13
lufbramatt said:
If you ever find yourself in Northern Ireland, it's worth arranging a visit to the Ulster Aviation Society at Maze long Kesh (due to politics over the site they are based on they can't open as a proper museum, which is a shame as they have a great collection). they have just finished restoring their FG.1 Phantom into FAA colours and it looks stunning.
My favorite.
Airfix tweeted this
lufbramatt said:
If you ever find yourself in Northern Ireland, it's worth arranging a visit to the Ulster Aviation Society at Maze long Kesh (due to politics over the site they are based on they can't open as a proper museum, which is a shame as they have a great collection). they have just finished restoring their FG.1 Phantom into FAA colours and it looks stunning.
Grrrrrrrrrrr....'Phoenix Squadron' by Rowland White has been mentioned on here.great book. I was interested in the story of RN F4's damaging the Saratoga's JBD's due to Speys being afterburning turbofan rather than the reheated J79's on the American phantoms.
'F4 Phantom' by Robert Prest is also a great read.
I did read aswell the latest model in US service,the F4 S was a very capable aircraft by all accounts?
'F4 Phantom' by Robert Prest is also a great read.
I did read aswell the latest model in US service,the F4 S was a very capable aircraft by all accounts?
Kccv23highliftcam said:
lufbramatt said:
If you ever find yourself in Northern Ireland, it's worth arranging a visit to the Ulster Aviation Society at Maze long Kesh (due to politics over the site they are based on they can't open as a proper museum, which is a shame as they have a great collection). they have just finished restoring their FG.1 Phantom into FAA colours and it looks stunning.
Grrrrrrrrrrr....If you are interested in how the RAF operated the F4, Paul Courtnage's site is woth looking at:
http://www.projectoceanvision.com/vox-05.htm
http://www.projectoceanvision.com/vox-05.htm
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