A320 down in Pakistan
Discussion
motco said:
It's surprising that alarms aren't sounding if the altitude drops below a particular point and no gear is out.
They are, and certainly below about 750ft by most accounts, but before that point it seem clear they were also getting flap overspeed warning gongs, that they were ignoring/switching off these, in the higher workload of trying to recover a botched too high and too fast approach, so given how far down the runway they were before bouncing and skidding along on the engines, the Too Low Gear voice alarm was just added noise to a s
tstorm that was already going on on the flight deck........This crash started long before they actually touched the ground, and why that was we may never know, unless the CVR indicates some conflict or tensions between the two pilots, as that approach should have been binned 5 or more miles out from the airport.....
Im shocked that a no gear down landing can even happen. I would have thought the feel of a plane without landing gear down, would feel so odd to a pilot approaching a landing that it just wouldnt happen.
After over 20 years of driving I have trouble reverse parking without my seat belt on because Im so used to the feel of it & if you stick your knee out on a motorbike it can affect its direction slightly.
So I really would have thought a plane just woudnt feel right to a pilot without the landing gear down. A plane must fly pretty differently with landing gear up compared to down?
Even as a passenger Im sure I can feel the deceleration when the landing gear does down.
After over 20 years of driving I have trouble reverse parking without my seat belt on because Im so used to the feel of it & if you stick your knee out on a motorbike it can affect its direction slightly.
So I really would have thought a plane just woudnt feel right to a pilot without the landing gear down. A plane must fly pretty differently with landing gear up compared to down?
Even as a passenger Im sure I can feel the deceleration when the landing gear does down.
motco said:
An acquaintance of mine sent this to his contacts
I am uninformed in this subject but those on here who are better equipped may be able to comment
Video showing the marks on the runway and further analysis - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OZ0LY7ma1cAI am uninformed in this subject but those on here who are better equipped may be able to comment
You are right but they were so fast that it probably did not occur to them the noises were wrong. Also the first thing to go in a high pressure situation is your hearing. They managed to get the aircraft down from cruise in about half the time normally takes.
Still, the plane will have done its best to alert them but in millions of flights there will always be one perfect storm where the impossible happens.
Personally i think this type of situation is something we might see again as aircraft have been in storage and crews logging little to zero hours.
The first few flights are imho going to be the ones where things could go pear shaped.
Still, the plane will have done its best to alert them but in millions of flights there will always be one perfect storm where the impossible happens.
Personally i think this type of situation is something we might see again as aircraft have been in storage and crews logging little to zero hours.
The first few flights are imho going to be the ones where things could go pear shaped.
Mortgage_tom said:
Im shocked that a no gear down landing can even happen. I would have thought the feel of a plane without landing gear down, would feel so odd to a pilot approaching a landing that it just wouldnt happen.
After over 20 years of driving I have trouble reverse parking without my seat belt on because Im so used to the feel of it & if you stick your knee out on a motorbike it can affect its direction slightly.
So I really would have thought a plane just woudnt feel right to a pilot without the landing gear down. A plane must fly pretty differently with landing gear up compared to down?
Even as a passenger Im sure I can feel the deceleration when the landing gear does down.
In a normal approach, you are right (although it doesn't mean it can't happen) but you are ignoring that this was in no way a normal approach, and so all 'normal' procedures and logic had already been through out the window........as they had pretty much elected to ignore all SOP's long before the point at which the gear should have gone down.....After over 20 years of driving I have trouble reverse parking without my seat belt on because Im so used to the feel of it & if you stick your knee out on a motorbike it can affect its direction slightly.
So I really would have thought a plane just woudnt feel right to a pilot without the landing gear down. A plane must fly pretty differently with landing gear up compared to down?
Even as a passenger Im sure I can feel the deceleration when the landing gear does down.
aeropilot said:
In a normal approach, you are right (although it doesn't mean it can't happen) but you are ignoring that this was in no way a normal approach, and so all 'normal' procedures and logic had already been through out the window........as they had pretty much elected to ignore all SOP's long before the point at which the gear should have gone down.....
Some reports, yet to be verified, that this flight was the last into Edited by MarkwG on Tuesday 26th May 03:03
MarkwG said:
Some reports, yet to be verified, that this flight was the last into Lahore before some curfew (religious, noise, pandemic related, not sure). If true, could be a factor in why they were keeping the speed up, & over focused on getting in, if indeed they were.
That would explain it, although, without wishing to be too pendantic, it was Lahore they departed from, and Karachi they were landing at............but that aside, given its only 1.5hrs flight time, they must have been delayed from leaving that they would be hard pressed to be that late?ATC also wanted them to do a spiral decent circuit to get them onto the glidepath which they refused, so one has to assume whatever 'curfew' was likely to do with the flight crew rather than the airport perhaps?
As pointed out above, its still astonishing that there have been no ground fatalities in the circumstances, although they maybe still sifting through the debris?
aeropilot said:
MarkwG said:
Some reports, yet to be verified, that this flight was the last into Lahore before some curfew (religious, noise, pandemic related, not sure). If true, could be a factor in why they were keeping the speed up, & over focused on getting in, if indeed they were.
That would explain it, although, without wishing to be too pendantic, it was Lahore they departed from, and Karachi they were landing at............but that aside, given its only 1.5hrs flight time, they must have been delayed from leaving that they would be hard pressed to be that late?ATC also wanted them to do a spiral decent circuit to get them onto the glidepath which they refused, so one has to assume whatever 'curfew' was likely to do with the flight crew rather than the airport perhaps?
As pointed out above, its still astonishing that there have been no ground fatalities in the circumstances, although they maybe still sifting through the debris?
MarkwG said:
When the El Al 747 crashed in Amsterdam, there were many discrepancies with casualty numbers, due to the nature of the building it hit, perhaps similar to that?
Yes, very likely.Intense heat, building rubble, that type of area where likely unknown amount of people sharing dwellings, its very possible they might not even be able to confirm exact numbers.
During yesterday's Blancolirio video, he explained that on an A320, when the landing gear lever, which looks like a mechanical lever, is moved to the down position, it doesn't necessarily mean the gear has began to lower, as if the speed is too high (above 260 knots) it will simply not drop, yet the big mechanical shifter has been put into position!
Surely a better system would be to have a lever which will not hold in the down position until the correct criteria has been met.
It looks to me like they have came in too high and too fast, accepted a crazy fast landing, possibly due to external pressures, moved the lever and assumed they have wheels down when they didn't...
Surely a better system would be to have a lever which will not hold in the down position until the correct criteria has been met.
It looks to me like they have came in too high and too fast, accepted a crazy fast landing, possibly due to external pressures, moved the lever and assumed they have wheels down when they didn't...
Bandit110 said:
Surely a better system would be to have a lever which will not hold in the down position until the correct criteria has been met....
Like a series of bulbs for each landing gear which could turn green in the cockpit when each gear is locked in place,? Maybe each pilot could check each bulb has turned from red to green as part of, I don't know, a checklist, just to be sure.Gassing Station | Boats, Planes & Trains | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff