Boats...money pits???

[Speculatore]

fushion julz said:

Speculatore said:

Mine costs me £2800 a month in Ocean Village. I got a quote for Palma and it was €4000 Euros....

Wow... That is extrortionate...or you have a *very* large boat!

Langstone Harbour charge approx £750 pa for up to 7.5m LOA on a deep water swinging mooring. If your boat can dry out, then, so long as you don't mind the tidal hour restrictions, you can get cheaper moorings in Chichester Harbour, too.

25meter and certainly not able to dry out. Thankfully it will be out of the water for winter as zero cost which helps.

[NITO]

dhutch said:

The first thing which strikes me is that at 17" 90-130hp Dory is so difference to a 33ft Sunseeker with twin inboard 200hp Volvos!

If you can dump 30k on a boat, you are obviously not short of a few pennies, unless you are planning to take out a loan or marine mortgage for that but obviously nobody has bottomless pockets.


Daniel

I appreciate they are at somewhat opposite ends of the spectrum. One is what I would really like and I'm trying to gauge if it may be doable, the other fits the bill without taking on too much liability or risk, which as a first boat owner is the rational choice by all accounts, but I can't see it would get the same amount of use and feel the novelty would wear off quickly. Most people I know who have had trailer boats either sold them or moved to a moored boat or shared boat.

With regard to costs, there are always competing priorities (largely school fees) and there are no guarantees, the old adage, "if you can't afford to run the car you can't afford the car" applies. With a car or a motorbike, if you fall on hardish times or have a couple of bad months you can simply 'stop', you can sorn it, take it off the road and wait it out, you could do the same with a trailer boat and all are relatively easy to move on if push comes to shove. With a large boat, you have large outgoings that will continue regardless and indiscriminately and selling a big boat isn't the easiest thing either! It's trying to get a realistic steer on this and know what I'm getting into as best as possible before taking the plunge.

I have had communication with the owner of the Sunseeker, he informs that fuel consumption is 60-70L per hour at 22 knots cruising speed with maintenance at £500/year although he does a fair bit himself. If that were the case and it's a good boat, I may be able to live with that cost. But if it spits out it's dummy and lands me with a £12k bill while moored up at 3k per year it all starts to look a bit bleak and the dream rapidly becomes a nightmare! I guess this is where buying a good one (like anything) comes into it, but there are never any guarantees on that either. Now I have a better idea on fuel costs (red diesel 60p ish/litre) would be £42/hr, not far from the £50/hr I was guesstimating (the boat consumes more but red diesel costs less ). In all honesty, the Sunseeker thing looks far more appealing and that looks like a lovely example if out of budget but it is negotiable.

[pequod]

I don't know where you get the cost of red diesel from @ 60p/litre? You are required to declare your usage at the fuel berth and for a twin 200hp sport cruiser you should be declaring 80/20 split (80% propulsion 20% domestic) and unless you're living aboard with the diesel heating on a lot and charging the batteries without leaving your mooring then you will be using at least 80% of the fuel for propulsion. There are two prices for marine red diesel and unless you are commercial (fishing/charter boat for example) you will be paying £1.30 ish per litre for 80% and 70p ish for the 20%. FWIW my syndicate liked to use the Fairline for lunch trips to the IOW and cruising at 22 knts didn't come into it as time and first beer waits for no man so the horses weren't spared and although we never were at full chat, 32 knts was the 'optimal' speed!!
I can tell you from experience that running twin VP 200's is not something to be taken lightly even if you are handy with the spanners plus, as I suspect, that Sunseeker will have outdrives which opens up another potential world of pain for older boats' machinery.
As you started the thread considering a first boat to cruise around and go fishing on, why not consider a Merry Fisher such as this one?
https://www.boatsandoutboards.co.uk/Motorboats/jea...

[NITO]

pequod said:

I don't know where you get the cost of red diesel from @ 60p/litre? You are required to declare your usage at the fuel berth and for a twin 200hp sport cruiser you should be declaring 80/20 split (80% propulsion 20% domestic) and unless you're living aboard with the diesel heating on a lot and charging the batteries without leaving your mooring then you will be using at least 80% of the fuel for propulsion. There are two prices for marine red diesel and unless you are commercial (fishing/charter boat for example) you will be paying £1.30 ish per litre for 80% and 70p ish for the 20%. FWIW my syndicate liked to use the Fairline for lunch trips to the IOW and cruising at 22 knts didn't come into it as time and first beer waits for no man so the horses weren't spared and although we never were at full chat, 32 knts was the 'optimal' speed!!
I can tell you from experience that running twin VP 200's is not something to be taken lightly even if you are handy with the spanners plus, as I suspect, that Sunseeker will have outdrives which opens up another potential world of pain for older boats' machinery.
As you started the thread considering a first boat to cruise around and go fishing on, why not consider a Merry Fisher such as this one?
https://www.boatsandoutboards.co.uk/Motorboats/jea...

Thanks, lots of info there. I just did a google for red diesel price and that is what came up. I didn't know about separate rates for propulsion, I just thought red diesel was red diesel! So do tractors also pay a higher rate for propulsion?

I wondered why people would even consider petrol engines if diesel was so cheap, now I know why!!

Yes it has outdrives. Diesel at the normal rate would be a bit of a blow. It's hard to justify travelling at £90-£130/hr!! Although we'd be happy to motor out a bit, drop anchor and fishing lines and just chill on the water for a bit.

The Merry Fishers are lovely, I was looking at one the other day, I didn't know it was a merry fisher then but it looked virtually the same as this but with an outboard motor. It would make a good alternative to add to the mix, thanks.

[dhutch]

Obviously the middle ground would be something around 25ft-8m mark, beam of 3m or less, deep vee hull, small cabin under the front deck, trailable.

You could then take it where you liked, store it inexpensively over winter, but also very happily leave it on a mooring for a few months over summer, and go our in heavier weathers.

Friend of mine has a 16ft ish 'Salcombe Flyer' sport rib, fairly shallow vee and 90hp yamaha so not not what you are after, but while he basically uses it at a trailerable boat. If we have a week holiday he pays for a mooring for it on a jetty so we can use it daily without the faff of waiting for the slipway queue.

https://sportboats.apolloduck.co.uk/boat/jeanneau-...

Daniel

[dhutch]

If I was after a boat it would be something like this, but that is because I am slightly mad!

https://sportboats.apolloduck.co.uk/boat/chris-cra...
https://sportboats.apolloduck.co.uk/boat/chris-cra...

[Marlin45]

LimaDelta said:

Cue inevitable "if it flies, floats, etc" and "the happiest days..." replies in 3, 2, 1...

................or whinnies!

[pequod]

NITO said:

Thanks, lots of info there. I just did a google for red diesel price and that is what came up. I didn't know about separate rates for propulsion, I just thought red diesel was red diesel! So do tractors also pay a higher rate for propulsion?

I wondered why people would even consider petrol engines if diesel was so cheap, now I know why!!

Yes it has outdrives. Diesel at the normal rate would be a bit of a blow. It's hard to justify travelling at £90-£130/hr!! Although we'd be happy to motor out a bit, drop anchor and fishing lines and just chill on the water for a bit.

The Merry Fishers are lovely, I was looking at one the other day, I didn't know it was a merry fisher then but it looked virtually the same as this but with an outboard motor. It would make a good alternative to add to the mix, thanks.

That MF635 has an inboard 85hp Nanni diesel, economical and easy to work on plus won't break the bank in terms of running costs and annual maintenance or spares, and it's attached to a straightforward marine gearbox and shaft drive which is far less complicated than an outdrive and a lot less cost to fix if anything happens.
I don't wish to be rude, and I realise how easy it is to get seduced into something bigger/faster, but from what you've told us you appear inexperienced and that Sunseeker will take a fair bit of knowledge of power boat handling so I would suggest having a realistic idea of what you could handle as a first boat. Maybe worth having a look at a few in the flesh and Brokers are always the best place to view a few different makes/models and are usually happy to chat about boats!!.
Finally, be careful of buying privately unless you are sure of what you are doing, as it's not like buying a car/motorbike; think of it more akin to buying a house (contracts, survey, etc.).
HTH

[Condi]

dhutch said:

The first thing which strikes me is that at 17" 90-130hp Dory is so difference to a 33ft Sunseeker with twin inboard 200hp Volvos!

Very much so. The costs, usage, capability etc will be totally different.

I like small inshore craft which can still be very capable in a medium sea or for day trips down the coast. A 33ft Sunseaker is far more capable and costly than that, but trips as far as France are not impossible and you can likely stay on board for a few days too.

[steve-V8s]

Have you considered something with a sail ?

A good way to go boating is to have a friend with a boat.

[So]

cashmax said:

Sorry for the lengthy reply, but hopefully might be helpful.

After owning several fishing boats (think dory / fast fisher style) I bought something more substantial in 2014 that could be trailer easily and needed to be kept in a marina / mooring. I bought a 2005 Merry Fisher 805 - mainly because we wanted to sleep 4 people (at a push) and something that was good for fishing, which the whole family love, and also have some R&R on the coast.

There are many pros and cons of a moored boat vs trailered option, but the absolute first thing to mention is the weather. From the second you own a boat, half your life is spent looking at various reports of swell, wave height, pressure etc, trying to figure out when getting out on it is feasible. Any significant wind will normally result in choppy seas and although a bigger boat can handle this better, its not much fun at all to be out when you have everything falling around and water coming over the cockpit. So bear in mind that every time you want to use the boat, there is a very real chance that the weather/wind will prevent this. Clearly this varies depending on location and there are places where you can improve your odds.

That’s the main reason I choose Poole. It was less than an hour normally for me and if the weather didn’t play ball, the huge harbour provided a safe haven for boating when the ocean was simply too choppy.

You haven’t provided much detail so I have assumed that you don’t live next to the ocean and that you are not primarily buying for fishing and that you would be looking for a marina berth.

Pros of small trailer boat -

Easy to buy
Easy to sell (relatively)
If you know what you are doing technically, there isn’t anything you can’t fix at home
You can choose different locations
Clearly huge savings on marina / berthing fees
You can work on your boat at your leisure (if you keep it at home of course)

Cons of small boat on a trailer -

When the weather is perfect - everyone wants to launch and traffic/launch queues/parking etc is sometimes a nitemare.
Trailers don’t last long and take a fair bit of maintenance
The whole process can be a real faff
A dory style boat really don’t take much swell very well

Pros of berthed bigger boat -

Can be left ready to go so lastminuite.com
Parking is simple
Decent marinas will have good facilities (showers, chandlery, food etc)
Crucially - you have a place where you can make use of your boat, without have to leave it’s berth - I can’t emphasise enough how vital this is. Some big boat owners never leave port - but the marina fees are less than renting an apartment locally for example. You can also wait out bad weather.

Cons of berthed bigger boat -

Cost - fees - engines can be hard to work on, boat will need to come out at least once a year and be antifouled and inspected, will need winterising each year and thats without anything going wrong. Marinas also often charge for others to work on you boat.
Stuck in one area - although you can travel to other marinas / areas.

I paid £40k for my boat in 2014 and ended up berthing it in Salterns Marina in Poole. Perhaps one of the most expensive ones in the area, but it had great facilities and didn’t require the tides to be correct to leave/enter and didn’t have a swing bridge or any other obstacles before getting out to the ocean. It was also very close to the harbour entrance and given the harbour speed limit on top of the other issues, it might take many hours before you could leave the harbour from any other marina. It was also a very nice place to be and my reckoning was that it was about the cheapest place to rent in sandbanks, given it’s location.

The Costs

The Marina fees were nearly £10k per year
To lift the boat out costs circa £250, another £400 to antifoul it (you could do this yourself for about £100)
Fuel wasn’t that expensive because you use red diesel and the only other costs were maintenance, which I did myself - My boat had a Nanni Diesel, which is basically a landcruiser engine and one of the reasons I bought it was the simplicity of it and good access.

Safety

When you have your whole family out on the ocean in a large boat, things are different - you can’t take any ground or go to near a beach or rocks and are constantly on guard against potential hazards, engine faults, taking on water etc and it’s a very different mindset to a smaller boat for some reason.

Our experience -

We loved every minute of it, sometimes just sitting on the deck on a sunny day in the marina was perfect, watching the world go by. We had the odd close call, but nothing to serious. The boat was good in choppy stuff and provided a great platform for winter fishing as well as in the summer.

But ultimately, I just couldn’t get comfortable with the costs of keeping it in the marina and the ease of access to the ocean anywhere else that was close enough to us to be spontaneous made us decide to take a break in 2018. I sold the boat for £35K, but of course paid more than that in ownership/mooring costs. I do of course recognise that it could have been less than half this in some other areas.

My advice -

You are looking at an old sunseeker late 80’s according to your budget, twin engines come with added complications and are expensive to look after. The maintenance costs on a boat like that will be circa £5k per year if things don’t go wrong and you are really throwing yourself in at the deep end.

If I was to buy another boat, it would be something with an outboard, perhaps a merry fisher 855 or similar, but anything a few years old, holds its value well.

In your position, having not owned a boat before I would suggest going down the trailer route with a dory or similar, getting the feel for using it, navigation, sea legs etc and seeing how much you use it and what aspects are important. Then consider the longer term commitment of buying something that requires a marina.

Excellent post.

I am doing my power boat course in a few weeks and harboured the notion of buying a day cruiser. But not one person I know who owns or has owned a boat has unqualified said, "yes, buy a boat".

I think I'll hire for now.

[Jaguar steve]

I Skipper and train on a Humber 5m RIB for a Yoof charity on the Essex coast.

Maintained all tide swinging mooring and dinghy storage is around £600p/a and insurance is about £400p/a. DIY Anti foul and servicing comes in about £200p/a and there's always the odd expense popping up like replacement bilge pumps and keeping flares and life jacket cylinders in date.

Fuel burn is around 10l/hr at top economic plane and 18l/hr at full spankage. We usually chew our way through between £60 - £80 worth every time we go out for the day.

[Louis Balfour]

Jaguar steve said:

I Skipper and train on a Humber 5m RIB for a Yoof charity on the Essex coast.

Maintained all tide swinging mooring and dinghy storage is around £600p/a and insurance is about £400p/a. DIY Anti foul and servicing comes in about £200p/a and there's always the odd expense popping up like replacement bilge pumps and keeping flares and life jacket cylinders in date.

Fuel burn is around 10l/hr at top economic plane and 18l/hr at full spankage. We usually chew our way through between £60 - £80 worth every time we go out for the day.

Is spankage an actual nautical term? I might drop that into conversation.

[pequod]

So said:

Excellent post.

I am doing my power boat course in a few weeks and harboured the notion of buying a day cruiser. But not one person I know who owns or has owned a boat has unqualified said, "yes, buy a boat".

I think I'll hire for now.

Certainly an incite into boat ownership, however, this is one persons reflection and not a definitive precis of the ups and downs of owning a vessel. There are many and varied options of boating, both in terms of type, but maybe more importantly, where you are in relation to where you would prefer to get afloat.
For many years, the Solent has been the Mecca of sailing (both under sail or power) as it is relatively sheltered waters, not far from the Home Counties, and many folk have bought into boat ownership based on those parameters. It is now generally overcrowded but has generated great wealth in the region through boat building/repairs/chandlery sales and the marina facilities that are lovely, but at a price.
There are other options, such as club moorings, but they are never in the most convenient places in terms of tides and access. Some lovely river and town moorings have been in the same family for years and are sublet on the QT including those in Lymington, Hamble, and elsewhere which never become available for locals, unless you have the contacts.
So, for the OP, be aware that you are free to buy any boat that you desire, but where you can moor it needs some research, and those on here who are suggesting parking a 34 footer for £3K on the South Coast is easy, I would suggest it's not, and unless you disregard the costs and submit to the whims of MDL (and others) prices you will be paying for access way more than that!!

[Jaguar steve]

Louis Balfour said:

Jaguar steve said:

I Skipper and train on a Humber 5m RIB for a Yoof charity on the Essex coast.

Maintained all tide swinging mooring and dinghy storage is around £600p/a and insurance is about £400p/a. DIY Anti foul and servicing comes in about £200p/a and there's always the odd expense popping up like replacement bilge pumps and keeping flares and life jacket cylinders in date.

Fuel burn is around 10l/hr at top economic plane and 18l/hr at full spankage. We usually chew our way through between £60 - £80 worth every time we go out for the day.

Is spankage an actual nautical term? I might drop that into conversation.

Possibly not.

It's entirely suitable to describe what happens to the engine when a hormonaly challenged 12 year old is given charge of helm and throttle though.

[Yacht Broker]

Everyone should own a boat...... (a little biased perhaps.....)

[So]

Yacht Broker said:

Everyone should own a boat...... (a little biased perhaps.....)

I'd have thought you'd be busy enough without the marketing posts.

[cardigankid]

Reading this with interest.

I’m not sure I fancy the boating scene in the U.K. In the picturesque locations the weather is so often foul. I don t want to spend my weekends defouling my boat or drinking in some seedy yacht club, trying to make the pump action toilet work, or even worse racing round buoys.

What if you fancy a boat but would rather keep it in the Med, maybe in the Aegean? Obviously you would have to be spending a bit of time there, but that might be cheaper and more fun than a hotel. Swimming in deserted bays or drinking Retsina in some picturesque little port sound more fun.

[AndrewCrown]

Some very good advice on here....

My tuppence.....I’d advise some RYA approved training way before you buy a boat...

[AndrewCrown]

fushion julz said:

Unless your prospective vessel is very large, it is entirely possible to moor it on the south coast for under £1k pa. and the south coast is the most expensive place in UK...other areas will be less!
However, this will be on a swinging or trot mooring so you will need a tender to access the craft.

Until recently I had a speedboat (Simms Super-V/70hp Mercury) on a trailer...the actual cost of the boat and the maintenence was not excessive (but some outboard engine parts are, individually, pretty expensive). The cost was mostly in the towing fuel and the launch fees as most slipways charge for the use.

I now have a motor cruiser (Fairey Huntress) berthed in a marina in Chichester Harbour. Yes it is more expensive both in fuel, maintenence and berthing compared to the speedboat, but it is a lot more versatile and comfortable as well as being suitable for use in a much larger range of conditions.

Fairey Huntress....pure class