Boats...money pits???
Discussion
Jaguar steve said:
Boats have to be used a lot to make the expense of buying and keeping one worthwhile, and that doesn't work unless you buy the right boat for you and keep it where you want to sail it.
Otherwise, yes they're money pits.
As someone put it succinctly on "my" thread: Only buy a boat if it's your main hobby, otherwise hire.Otherwise, yes they're money pits.
However, when I have my villa on Lake Garda I may allow myself an Aquarama for dotting about to the different towns for lunch.
Great update OP and looks to be a lovely boat. I didn’t realise they were on shafts.
You’ve done really well in the current climate as well. I sold my boat over 6 months ago and still haven’t found a replacement. I’ve upped budget and length but can’t find anything to look at. I’ve continued paying extortionate mooring fees for a 10ft tender until I find something!
Much respect for doing the work yourself. My technical ability extended to polishing the hull and bottles of port.
You’ve done really well in the current climate as well. I sold my boat over 6 months ago and still haven’t found a replacement. I’ve upped budget and length but can’t find anything to look at. I’ve continued paying extortionate mooring fees for a 10ft tender until I find something!
Much respect for doing the work yourself. My technical ability extended to polishing the hull and bottles of port.
NITO said:
Well I owe it to everyone who commented and kindly gave us excellent advice on this thread to return with where we ended up...
I have to congratulate you on the way you tackled the vertical learning curve and mentally adopted all the stuff that boats have that cars don't. My first boat was a 23' cabin cruiser from 1972 and that was enough to learn at the time.You have to own a boat with your heart not your head, and take the bad bits on the chin because you know good bits are around the corner. Even if you don't do many hours in it, it's an escape from humdrumsville, physically and mentally.
As for money pit, it depends what boat you buy, its condition and what you define as a pit... my current boat is having a new hood for its 10th birthday in the spring
Edited by Simpo Two on Tuesday 11th January 22:30
Louis Balfour said:
We've just sold our boat, as you may know. We enjoyed it, but the ongoing (and accelerating) cost of ownership was going to play on my mind. Essentially because I am tight.
Louis Balfour said:
It was a new Merry Fisher 695 and no, I did not work on it myself. But even new boats need stuff doing and if it had been sitting in a marina just going green over winter I would not have been happy.
You mention the accelerating costs of ownership, I'm curious as to what you felt these were? My FIL has an outboard engined boat, much like the MF and it would appear to be about as maintenance/liability free as a boat can get. Apart from anti foul each year and servicing the outboard, I'm just wondering what other aspects concerned you with regards to cost of ownership that made you feel that way?Jaguar steve said:
Boats have to be used a lot to make the expense of buying and keeping one worthwhile, and that doesn't work unless you buy the right boat for you and keep it where you want to sail it.
Otherwise, yes they're money pits.
I think this was very important to us, it had to be a boat that pushed all our buttons, owning a boat can be hard work and if you're going to put that work in the heart has to be into it. Going for a Marina berth over anything else was also perfect for us. | can't imagine launching or being river based would have worked for us.Otherwise, yes they're money pits.
minipower said:
Great update OP and looks to be a lovely boat. I didn’t realise they were on shafts.
You’ve done really well in the current climate as well. I sold my boat over 6 months ago and still haven’t found a replacement. I’ve upped budget and length but can’t find anything to look at. I’ve continued paying extortionate mooring fees for a 10ft tender until I find something!
Much respect for doing the work yourself. My technical ability extended to polishing the hull and bottles of port.
Thank you very much. The Portofino was one of those rare boats that was actually available in shaft or outdrive configuration. Petrol or diesel for sterndrive option, with KAD42's at 230hp each it's a heavy boat and I understand they can be a struggle to get onto the plane. Shaft option was offered with VP 63p's at 370hp each or the Cats with 420hp each. With the Cats the torque is effortless and she rises onto the plane at about 12 knots!You’ve done really well in the current climate as well. I sold my boat over 6 months ago and still haven’t found a replacement. I’ve upped budget and length but can’t find anything to look at. I’ve continued paying extortionate mooring fees for a 10ft tender until I find something!
Much respect for doing the work yourself. My technical ability extended to polishing the hull and bottles of port.
Good luck finding your next boat, it took us nearly a year to find ours. Hopefully they will all start popping up for sale as we get near season. I understand many are selling before the are even advertised so worth ringing up the brokers and asking if they know of anything coming in and maybe leaving your details.
Simpo Two said:
I have to congratulate you on the way you tackled the vertical learning curve and mentally adopted all the stuff that boats have that cars don't. My first boat was a 23' cabin cruiser from 1972 and that was enough to learn at the time.
You have to own a boat with your heart not your head, and take the bad bits on the chin because you know good bits are around the corner. Even if you don't do many hours in it, it's an escape from hundrumsville, physically and mentally.
As for money pit, it depends what boat you buy, its condition and what you define as a pit... my current boat is having a new hood for its 10th birthday in the spring
Thank you. I couldn't agree more about the heart not head. I wouldn't have had the patience or perseverance to have got this involved without being into it.I think deep down I always knew it was going to have to be a Sunseeker, I just needed to figure out what kind of costs and liabilities we were looking at. As it happens, they are probably among the more complex of vessels with inboards etc and a lot of onboard systems, however I am grateful that there is a proper engine bay to work in, many of the sterndrive ones we looked at were accessed from above, ok for some jobs, but awkward for others. You have to own a boat with your heart not your head, and take the bad bits on the chin because you know good bits are around the corner. Even if you don't do many hours in it, it's an escape from hundrumsville, physically and mentally.
As for money pit, it depends what boat you buy, its condition and what you define as a pit... my current boat is having a new hood for its 10th birthday in the spring
When I think of some of the boats we looked at, this one had already had a lot of money spent on it by the previous owner who looked after it well, it was the first boat we looked at that didn't really appear to need anything doing to it. Some of the ones we looked it in hindsight would have been considerably more work to get to where we wanted. We got a great canvas and everything we've done will help keep or add value to the boat. I am absolutely delighted with it, when things go wrong there is nothing to do but resolve it, with each thing I do or replace it just gives me more confidence with the boat. I've gone around the whole thing now and cast a critical eye over all of it, found a few things but all in good time to catch it early and prevent it being a much bigger issue.
Happy 10th Bday to your boat, it must be a lovely feeling when the new hood is first fitted!!
As for money pit, I guess when it feels like that is what it is, it's time to get shot. Like L'Oreal, at the moment, it's worth it and I hope it continues to be
NITO said:
I am absolutely delighted with it, when things go wrong there is nothing to do but resolve it, with each thing I do or replace it just gives me more confidence with the boat. I've gone around the whole thing now and cast a critical eye over all of it, found a few things but all in good time to catch it early and prevent it being a much bigger issue.
If it helps, although I bought my current boat brand new from the factory, I still spent about five happy years trotting back and forth with a toolbox and various bits and bobs to improve it... When you've studied and prodded every inch of it, it feels much more 'yours'.I'd had many hours at the wheel with other peoples' boats, but taking your own boat out for the first time is a very different. I set off on my first trip thinking 'What's the the worst that can go wrong? Ah yes, I can sink'. And so I kept checking the bank to make sure it wasn't getting any higher, and looking under the floor to make sure no water was coming in... Seems silly perhaps, but to this day, even though nobody can tell, I'm alert to any change in anything - for example a change in exhaust note indicating the raw water inlet is blocked. Breaking down is not good because there may be nobody around to give you a tow. But you know all that now
Have a great season - when it starts!
Totally different all together, but we have a 58ft narrowboat, 22tons of 30yo steel my grandfather commissioned as a retirement exercise. Complete with coal fired steam plant for propulsion, as you do.
Running costs are now shared equally between myself, my fiancee, and my two parents, and the boat survives on £400/month.
That excludes purchase price as it was inherited, but including all other costs, fuel and consumables, routine rolling maintenance, four yearly drydock and survey, insurance and license, annual boiler test, on the basis we do the work ourselves.
Typically four people for week's drydock, and a week's external painting, every four years, plus a weekend at the start of each year minimum, plus odd days here and there for repairs and roll improvements to keep the onboard facilities reasonably current. We have just fitted a new set of four lesure batteries which are a months funds alone,. It the alst set lasted 14 years.
All boats age, but with care and a with a good paint system on the hull, rolling maintenance and replacment of items, the condition is broadly stable and deprecation negligible.
It gets used basically every other weekend throughout summer, plus typically an additional week holiday each, so 35days a year. It isn't or sole hobby, and we all have significant other interests, but it likely is the largest time and cost other than the two dogs.
Running costs are now shared equally between myself, my fiancee, and my two parents, and the boat survives on £400/month.
That excludes purchase price as it was inherited, but including all other costs, fuel and consumables, routine rolling maintenance, four yearly drydock and survey, insurance and license, annual boiler test, on the basis we do the work ourselves.
Typically four people for week's drydock, and a week's external painting, every four years, plus a weekend at the start of each year minimum, plus odd days here and there for repairs and roll improvements to keep the onboard facilities reasonably current. We have just fitted a new set of four lesure batteries which are a months funds alone,. It the alst set lasted 14 years.
All boats age, but with care and a with a good paint system on the hull, rolling maintenance and replacment of items, the condition is broadly stable and deprecation negligible.
It gets used basically every other weekend throughout summer, plus typically an additional week holiday each, so 35days a year. It isn't or sole hobby, and we all have significant other interests, but it likely is the largest time and cost other than the two dogs.
NITO said:
You mention the accelerating costs of ownership, I'm curious as to what you felt these were? My FIL has an outboard engined boat, much like the MF and it would appear to be about as maintenance/liability free as a boat can get. Apart from anti foul each year and servicing the outboard, I'm just wondering what other aspects concerned you with regards to cost of ownership that made you feel that way?
Our boat was brand new. But after 8 months of use there were wear and tear bills arising. We didn’t reach the point of its first anti fouling but it needed taking out and pressure washing off, because it had “lost” 5 knots.
When it went, I had just paid £400 excess for a gearbox shaft, damaged by a submerged hazard. It also needed a gel coat repair and fender rail re-polish - lock damage.
Clearly the older it became the more it was going to cost and I had precisely zero interest in doing any of it myself.
I appreciate that my costs were minute when compared to those incurred by many boat owners. But, when our usage was also likely to decline,the cost vs enjoyment graph was going the wrong way. The supplying dealer bought it back for what we paid new, after we had enjoyed it for 8 months of regular use.
Friends with boats are quite happy to drop large sums on running them, but boats are their main hobby. Even then, they sometimes break down despite £££££ spent on maintenance. One chap had just spent big money on his cruiser, took a fortnight off to go on holiday in it and it blew a hydraulic hose a mile from the Marina. He was then dependent upon their goodwill to get him going again.
I will own another boat in certain circumstances. For example if I end up living in Italy next to water, or become massively rich to a point where the cost of owning a big boat, probably a new one, is of no consequence. Otherwise I will hire one.
Simpo Two said:
I'd had many hours at the wheel with other peoples' boats, but taking your own boat out for the first time is a very different. I set off on my first trip thinking 'What's the the worst that can go wrong? Ah yes, I can sink'. And so I kept checking the bank to make sure it wasn't getting any higher, and looking under the floor to make sure no water was coming in... Seems silly perhaps, but to this day, even though nobody can tell, I'm alert to any change in anything - for example a change in exhaust note indicating the raw water inlet is blocked. Breaking down is not good because there may be nobody around to give you a tow. But you know all that now
Have a great season - when it starts!
Lol, yes, can relate to this. Our maiden voyage was 8 hours around the coast. We stopped a couple of times at sea so I could go below and check in the engine room. Sure enough, around beachy head a little water had entered one of the bilges, about 1L. It was the beginnings of our shaft seal issue from the relatively newly fitted shaft seals but that is resolved now! I thought we'd have to pull the boat out mid season to sort out but managed to correct it in situ. I'm also paranoid about any changes in sound, I think I get more relaxed as time goes on but as you say, when you start off the protective barriers are up and you're ultra paranoid about everything!Have a great season - when it starts!
dhutch said:
All boats age, but with care and a with a good paint system on the hull, rolling maintenance and replacment of items, the condition is broadly stable and deprecation negligible.
Amen to that. Nice that you all muck in working on that, many hands make light work (theoretically) 
Here's hoping we can get the kids to help with the anti fouling!Louis Balfour said:
I appreciate that my costs were minute when compared to those incurred by many boat owners. But, when our usage was also likely to decline,the cost vs enjoyment graph was going the wrong way. The supplying dealer bought it back for what we paid new, after we had enjoyed it for 8 months of regular use.
Friends with boats are quite happy to drop large sums on running them, but boats are their main hobby. Even then, they sometimes break down despite £££££ spent on maintenance. One chap had just spent big money on his cruiser, took a fortnight off to go on holiday in it and it blew a hydraulic hose a mile from the Marina. He was then dependent upon their goodwill to get him going again.
I will own another boat in certain circumstances. For example if I end up living in Italy next to water, or become massively rich to a point where the cost of owning a big boat, probably a new one, is of no consequence. Otherwise I will hire one.
Thanks for the clarification. You obviously did the right thing if you were feeling that way. With regards to your friend, it's not nice being dependent on others. With regards to your lake boat, if I lived by an Italian lake, it would have to be one of these Friends with boats are quite happy to drop large sums on running them, but boats are their main hobby. Even then, they sometimes break down despite £££££ spent on maintenance. One chap had just spent big money on his cruiser, took a fortnight off to go on holiday in it and it blew a hydraulic hose a mile from the Marina. He was then dependent upon their goodwill to get him going again.
I will own another boat in certain circumstances. For example if I end up living in Italy next to water, or become massively rich to a point where the cost of owning a big boat, probably a new one, is of no consequence. Otherwise I will hire one.
This one has been up for ages...beautiful looking boats...
https://www.boats.com/power-boats/1978-riva-st-tro...
Good luck with that dream, sounds nice!!
NITO said:
Here's hoping we can get the kids to help with the anti fouling!
Something you might like to research is Coppercoat. Saves pulling it out of the water every 2-3 years and antifouling.NITO said:
This one has been up for ages...beautiful looking boats...
https://www.boats.com/power-boats/1978-riva-st-tro...
I think in that position I might choose something that these guys have done: https://www.dennettboatbuilders.co.uk/https://www.boats.com/power-boats/1978-riva-st-tro...
Simpo Two said:
NITO said:
Here's hoping we can get the kids to help with the anti fouling!
Something you might like to research is Coppercoat. Saves pulling it out of the water every 2-3 years and antifouling.robm3 said:
Simpo Two said:
NITO said:
Here's hoping we can get the kids to help with the anti fouling!
Something you might like to research is Coppercoat. Saves pulling it out of the water every 2-3 years and antifouling.It's never to my knowledge been tested back to back with conventional antifouling but there is feedback from users saying you do need a lift every year to clean and lightly abrade the coating for it to continue working so the saving there has gone and it's not as effective as high strength traditional eroding anti fouling you need in areas such as the Thames estuary and parts of the south coast.
It's very needy and expensive to apply too and it needs to be done by an approved yard to have any sort of warranty. I've been quoted over £4.5k for stripping and Coppercoating my boat whereas I can anti foul it with weapons grade stuff each spring year for £160.
At the moment and having spoken to a couple of people who've got it I don't believe it lives up to the hype or is worth the cost. That may well change though if the legislation regarding the strength of anti fouling formulations changes again or if DIY use of traditional anti fouling is eventually banned.
The trouble is, boats need lifting annually anyway to replace anodes so the saving that copper coat gives is only the cost of AF (+labour if you’re not willing to do it yourself). My AF this year cost £120….copper coat doesn’t make economic sense to me although the thought of not needing to AF each year is attractive.
I guess anodes could be replaced by a diver to reduce the lift out cost..
I guess anodes could be replaced by a diver to reduce the lift out cost..
Simpo Two said:
Something you might like to research is Coppercoat. Saves pulling it out of the water every 2-3 years and antifouling.
I think in that position I might choose something that these guys have done: https://www.dennettboatbuilders.co.uk/
Hi, yes we looked at a boat with coppercoat that also had osmosis issues. I spoke to coppercoat at the time who were extremely helpful, it needs applying in warm temps and no sign of rain/moisture ideally. The slightest bit of rain or drop in temp and it's ruined. I think the materials quote was about 1k on a 33 footer. However after doing lots of reading and finding people with wildly differing experiences, plus I'm not so sure how easily it could be removed if wanted, I ended up preferring the idea of sticking with traditional. We've been doing this on the FIL's boat every year for some time now, it's not too bad and looks beautiful when finished! There is some lovely workmanship on those Dennett boats, I hadn't heard of them, thank you for the link, some of those interiors look quite exquisite!!I think in that position I might choose something that these guys have done: https://www.dennettboatbuilders.co.uk/
robm3 said:
That's a good recommendation. Just read a load of reviews about it. Looks interesting.
Thanks, as above, but yes Coppercoat and Hempel's Silic one also looked interesting. We viewed a boat with Silic one on the trim tabs which the owner was really impressed with. I may do my trim tabs and actuators with this stuff.Brother D said:
Hope you keep up with the blog - fascinating read!
That's very kind of you thank you. I have lots of updating to do, I always thought others would find it quite boring, writing it can be a therapy for insomnia lol, I do it just as a diary entry/musings and to help keep track and act as an aide memoir months/years down the line!!Jaguar steve said:
Keep reading. Some of what you read about Coppercoat is thinly disguised promotion and advertising.
At the moment and having spoken to a couple of people who've got it I don't believe it lives up to the hype or is worth the cost. That may well change though if the legislation regarding the strength of anti fouling formulations changes again or if DIY use of traditional anti fouling is eventually banned.
Was pretty much my conclusion after lots of reading about the subject. A little too hit and miss for my liking. I guess like with anything much will come down to proper application. I've never dismissed it, hopefully more positive reviews will come out and perhaps as the product or application develops. I got some really good advice from them at the time and was quite sold on the concept but it needs proper independent review in the field. Some have had exceptional results and others far from. I don't want to be one taking that chance with those odds.At the moment and having spoken to a couple of people who've got it I don't believe it lives up to the hype or is worth the cost. That may well change though if the legislation regarding the strength of anti fouling formulations changes again or if DIY use of traditional anti fouling is eventually banned.
Badda said:
The trouble is, boats need lifting annually anyway to replace anodes so the saving that copper coat gives is only the cost of AF (+labour if you’re not willing to do it yourself). My AF this year cost £120….copper coat doesn’t make economic sense to me although the thought of not needing to AF each year is attractive.
I guess anodes could be replaced by a diver to reduce the lift out cost..
I'd want to lift annually anyway. A chance to review everything, the props, rudders, trim tabs, seacocks, bow thruster and as you say all the anodes. According to my survey, it's good practice to lift the boats out and let the hull dry for a few weeks a year and shed some moisture, I have insufficient experience on that so can't comment. I guess anodes could be replaced by a diver to reduce the lift out cost..
NITO said:
According to my survey, it's good practice to lift the boats out and let the hull dry for a few weeks a year and shed some moisture, I have insufficient experience on that so can't comment.
As an anti osmosis measure presumably? GRP and salt water are both new to me, for the narrowboat, 3-4years between docking is common, we have done 5 once.NITO said:
I'd want to lift annually anyway. A chance to review everything, the props, rudders, trim tabs, seacocks, bow thruster and as you say all the anodes. According to my survey, it's good practice to lift the boats out and let the hull dry for a few weeks a year and shed some moisture, I have insufficient experience on that so can't comment.
Traditionally boats are 'laid up' over winter - ie sitting on the bank on trestles with all the water drained out so it can't freeze and crack anything.I did that in the first year - then realised I was wasting 5 months of the year! So when speccing my second boat I went for Coppercoat. The boat has been lifted out a few times, either for weed blockages or other work such as refurbing the bathing platform - and the anodes are still fine after 10 years. But generally it stays in the water all year, and in winter it's plugged into shore power with heaters to stop it from freezing.
There is probably no 'right' answer, it will depend where your boat is and what you like doing with it.
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