Inside the Spitfire factory
Discussion
Who owns the Spitfire ‘intellectual’ rights ? Was the design and subsequent Mk’s patented ?
Seems the desire to own these is strong - wondering why whoever owns the design doesn’t start building new ones. Appreciate there would be big investment needed to rebuild a production line etc and convince RR to start providing new engines etc. Similar to these car manufacturers who have started building new old classics. We’re good at this sort of thing !
Seems the desire to own these is strong - wondering why whoever owns the design doesn’t start building new ones. Appreciate there would be big investment needed to rebuild a production line etc and convince RR to start providing new engines etc. Similar to these car manufacturers who have started building new old classics. We’re good at this sort of thing !
From what I was told by someone involved in restorations. Building a new Spitfire would cost nearly as much as rebuilding an old one but would be worth far less, customers would always prefer a 'real' one preferably with combat history. The new one would also depreciate in a way the one with an original dataplate wouldn't.
There were few remarks on the show about how making new parts could be cheaper than restoring old ones so this may change. But as with old racing cars the history is always going to be a large part of the value and anyone who could afford to buy and run a brand new one can afford to have an old onebuilt restored.
Having said that only my first lottery win is committed to a genuine WW2 Spitfire, my second one will be devoted to a new build XVI with a glass cockpit. But that's just me.
There were few remarks on the show about how making new parts could be cheaper than restoring old ones so this may change. But as with old racing cars the history is always going to be a large part of the value and anyone who could afford to buy and run a brand new one can afford to have an old one
Having said that only my first lottery win is committed to a genuine WW2 Spitfire, my second one will be devoted to a new build XVI with a glass cockpit. But that's just me.
Dr Jekyll said:
From what I was told by someone involved in restorations. Building a new Spitfire would cost nearly as much as rebuilding an old one but would be worth far less, customers would always prefer a 'real' one preferably with combat history. The new one would also depreciate in a way the one with an original dataplate wouldn't.
There were few remarks on the show about how making new parts could be cheaper than restoring old ones so this may change. But as with old racing cars the history is always going to be a large part of the value and anyone who could afford to buy and run a brand new one can afford to have an old onebuilt restored.
Having said that only my first lottery win is committed to a genuine WW2 Spitfire, my second one will be devoted to a new build XVI with a glass cockpit. But that's just me.
So if you had say 10 serviceable bits of genuine Spitfire, do you put all ten into one renovation or one into ten renovations? There were few remarks on the show about how making new parts could be cheaper than restoring old ones so this may change. But as with old racing cars the history is always going to be a large part of the value and anyone who could afford to buy and run a brand new one can afford to have an old one
Having said that only my first lottery win is committed to a genuine WW2 Spitfire, my second one will be devoted to a new build XVI with a glass cockpit. But that's just me.
Ayahuasca said:
So if you had say 10 serviceable bits of genuine Spitfire, do you put all ten into one renovation or one into ten renovations?
It's just like the car world. You can "rebuild" one (even if its only a 'gear-knob' restoration) but building a brand new one without an identity to hang it onto is a whole different kettle of fish.Wouldn’t they be ‘continuation’ models with new data plates picking up where the last ones ended. I understand the ‘provenance’ issue but these would therefore be more affordable for more people or syndicates who might choose to buy one. Not a patch on a genuine pucker period plane but exactly the same without the value added by the history. Why stop at Spitfires ? You could order your own non-historic Memorial Flight !
V41LEY said:
Wouldn’t they be ‘continuation’ models with new data plates picking up where the last ones ended. I understand the ‘provenance’ issue but these would therefore be more affordable for more people or syndicates who might choose to buy one. Not a patch on a genuine pucker period plane but exactly the same without the value added by the history. Why stop at Spitfires ? You could order your own non-historic Memorial Flight !
There were some continuation YAK3 fighters built in the USSR in the 90s to the original plans but with American, but still ancient, engines.There is also a company that claims to have something similar with 75% to 90% scale Spitfires. They have acquired the rights to call themselves Supermarine and call their products the Supermarine Spitfire MK25 and MK26. But these are kits for homebuilt aircraft, perfectly decent products but appearance apart nothing to do with real Spitfires. I'm told the cockpit is actually slightly larger than on the originals otherwise the middle aged blokes who can afford to buy it would never fit in.
I think the kit costs around a quarter of a million £ with about 1200 hours labour to build it.
I seem to recall its the brass data plate that gives the spitfire its identity. Build a new one, rivet the data plate into place and you have a restored genuine spitfire.
Its a grey area, just like cars- is the Bentley with continuous history the genuine car, even though most of it has been replaced through age, wear, race damage etc..
...or is the recent rebuild where a car has been built. And, despite not existing until very recently, its % of genuine parts is higher then the car above. Which is the original??
(The court decided the former, which if you rebuild the remains of a spitfire isnt far short of the bentley with continuous history. So that dug up Hudricane could be rebuilt into flying condition one day).
Its a grey area, just like cars- is the Bentley with continuous history the genuine car, even though most of it has been replaced through age, wear, race damage etc..
...or is the recent rebuild where a car has been built. And, despite not existing until very recently, its % of genuine parts is higher then the car above. Which is the original??
(The court decided the former, which if you rebuild the remains of a spitfire isnt far short of the bentley with continuous history. So that dug up Hudricane could be rebuilt into flying condition one day).
Dr Jekyll said:
V41LEY said:
Wouldn’t they be ‘continuation’ models with new data plates picking up where the last ones ended. I understand the ‘provenance’ issue but these would therefore be more affordable for more people or syndicates who might choose to buy one. Not a patch on a genuine pucker period plane but exactly the same without the value added by the history. Why stop at Spitfires ? You could order your own non-historic Memorial Flight !
There were some continuation YAK3 fighters built in the USSR in the 90s to the original plans but with American, but still ancient, engines.That's why the CAA allow them on the G-reg, as they are designed, built and certified by the original company that built them despite using a different engine, and they carry a proper Yak model code as well.
Unlike the new build 'continuation' FW190 and ME262, which were not really bolt for bolt new builds, so CAA says no them on the G-reg, even though EASA are happy for them to fly in mainland Europe.
On the thorny issue of non-original design engines in replica warbirds, there have been a couple of Fokker DR1s replicas with modern engines. One was the subject of a TV documentary (Plane Resurrection). Another was G-BEFR that had a Lycoming engine and flew on a Permit to Fly its operation and maintenance having been monitored by the CAA.
Ayahuasca said:
On the thorny issue of non-original design engines in replica warbirds, there have been a couple of Fokker DR1s replicas with modern engines. One was the subject of a TV documentary (Plane Resurrection). Another was G-BEFR that had a Lycoming engine and flew on a Permit to Fly its operation and maintenance having been monitored by the CAA.
The WW1 era replicas seem to be an entirely different subject matter as far as the CAA go.....no idea why they take a more relaxed attitude to them in that respect.V41LEY said:
Who owns the Spitfire ‘intellectual’ rights ?
Vickers, or whoever bought them I guess. Eric will know the trail.V41LEY said:
Seems the desire to own these is strong - wondering why whoever owns the design doesn’t start building new ones. Appreciate there would be big investment needed to rebuild a production line etc and convince RR to start providing new engines etc.
I had that idea in about 1981. However that was as far as it got, I had a degree to do! Simpo Two said:
V41LEY said:
Who owns the Spitfire ‘intellectual’ rights ?
Vickers, or whoever bought them I guess. Eric will know the trail.V41LEY said:
Seems the desire to own these is strong - wondering why whoever owns the design doesn’t start building new ones. Appreciate there would be big investment needed to rebuild a production line etc and convince RR to start providing new engines etc.
I had that idea in about 1981. However that was as far as it got, I had a degree to do! In 1936, Supermarine was a wholly owned subsidiary of Vickers. In 1960ish Vickers merged with English Electric and a few other companies to form the British Aircraft Corporation (BAC). In 1977 BAC merged with Hawker Siddeley to form British Aerospace. British Aerospace became BAe Systems in 1999.
Edited by Eric Mc on Friday 16th October 08:09
https://www.aerosociety.com/media/4843/the-spitfir...
Interesting paper on the ‘reasons why’ of the design of the Spitfire wing.
Interesting paper on the ‘reasons why’ of the design of the Spitfire wing.
Dr Jekyll said:
I'm told the cockpit is actually slightly larger than on the originals otherwise the middle aged blokes who can afford to buy it would never fit in.
I found the Spitfire cockpit (a PRXIX) a very comfortable place to sit in, and I'm a not-small middle-aged bloke. I felt at very much home actually, it was quite a weird feeling. Maybe having spent so long driving around in GT6s etc.Dr Jekyll said:
More 4 at 9PM.
Looks like a new series about restorations/rebuilds.
LinkLooks like a new series about restorations/rebuilds.
https://www.channel4.com/programmes/inside-the-spi...
Will have a watch later.
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