Inside the Spitfire factory
Discussion
Yertis said:
IIRC fiddling with the bob-weight Eric mentioned was part of the 'solution' but the root problem was aerodynamic, flutter or some such, and the Typhoon was really too fast for its own strength.
I always believed in there being a line of development from Hart through Hurricane to Typhoon, Tempest and Sea Fury, but was firmly told this was not the case by another prolific PHer, of Irish descent and whose knowledge I respect enormously, who was quite adamant that the Sea Fury was born of Hawker's wartime analysis of the FW190.
My understanding was that certainly the cowling was based on examining the FW190, and quite possibly the notion of a much smaller wing. But the Tempest design was the starting point. Whether it was a case of 'how can we improve the Tempest? let's look at a FW190 for ideas'. or 'Let's make our own FW190, but base it on the Tempest rather than start from scratch'. I don't know.I always believed in there being a line of development from Hart through Hurricane to Typhoon, Tempest and Sea Fury, but was firmly told this was not the case by another prolific PHer, of Irish descent and whose knowledge I respect enormously, who was quite adamant that the Sea Fury was born of Hawker's wartime analysis of the FW190.
Yertis said:
IIRC fiddling with the bob-weight Eric mentioned was part of the 'solution' but the root problem was aerodynamic, flutter or some such, and the Typhoon was really too fast for its own strength.
I always believed in there being a line of development from Hart through Hurricane to Typhoon, Tempest and Sea Fury, but was firmly told this was not the case by another prolific PHer, of Irish descent and whose knowledge I respect enormously, who was quite adamant that the Sea Fury was born of Hawker's wartime analysis of the FW190.
Would that be me by any chance? I always believed in there being a line of development from Hart through Hurricane to Typhoon, Tempest and Sea Fury, but was firmly told this was not the case by another prolific PHer, of Irish descent and whose knowledge I respect enormously, who was quite adamant that the Sea Fury was born of Hawker's wartime analysis of the FW190.
The Sea Fury is part of the line of descent you mentioned but it was also heavilly influenced by the Fw190 (as was the Grumman F8F Bearcat as well). Even the Fw190 itself was influenced by an earlier design - the Mitsubishi A6M Zero.
Designers are always looking at what the "opposition" are doing.
Really enjoying the programme so far, I'm only a few episodes in. On the subject of Dakota's many years ago (in the late 80's) we went over to Jersey for a weekend break. We were flying from Southampton to Jersey it was all booked etc and to my great surprise Air Atlantique were flying over to Jersey in their Dakota.
It was a wonderful experience, they were playing Glenn Miller music through the speakers when we were getting in and one smartarse said 'didn't he go down in one of these'
To add to the experience you could go up to the cockpit and chat to the pilot, there was only a curtain to divide it. In conversation with the pilot he told me there is a real fight for who gets to do this flight back at HQ as every pilot wants to fly it instead of the usual plane.
If our luck wasn't enough on the first flight the Dakota was still running on the flight home, truly fantastic.
It was a wonderful experience, they were playing Glenn Miller music through the speakers when we were getting in and one smartarse said 'didn't he go down in one of these'
To add to the experience you could go up to the cockpit and chat to the pilot, there was only a curtain to divide it. In conversation with the pilot he told me there is a real fight for who gets to do this flight back at HQ as every pilot wants to fly it instead of the usual plane.
If our luck wasn't enough on the first flight the Dakota was still running on the flight home, truly fantastic.
aeropilot said:
Eric Mc said:
CanAm said:
Eric Mc said:
Watching Episode 2 tonight. I’m really enjoying it. I liked the coverage they gave to the Typhoon restoration project.
They're based about 2 miles from me. I went to an open evening last year but unfortunately the bulk of the fuselage was away being rebuilt, as shown in the programme. 
https://uckfieldnews.com/hawker-typhoon-enthuisast...
This group seems to have a Napier Sabre. They plan to get the Typhoon flying by 2024.
This group seems to have a Napier Sabre. They plan to get the Typhoon flying by 2024.
Ayahuasca said:
https://uckfieldnews.com/hawker-typhoon-enthuisast...
This group seems to have a Napier Sabre. They plan to get the Typhoon flying by 2024.
The Typhoon Group in Canada rebuilding JP843 have two Sabre's looking at this video they posted a month or so ago.This group seems to have a Napier Sabre. They plan to get the Typhoon flying by 2024.
https://www.youtube.com/c/typhoonlegacycoltd
Ayahuasca said:
https://uckfieldnews.com/hawker-typhoon-enthuisast...
This group seems to have a Napier Sabre. They plan to get the Typhoon flying by 2024.
And just need £5m to do it. This group seems to have a Napier Sabre. They plan to get the Typhoon flying by 2024.
CanAm said:
Ayahuasca said:
https://uckfieldnews.com/hawker-typhoon-enthuisast...
This group seems to have a Napier Sabre. They plan to get the Typhoon flying by 2024.
And just need £5m to do it. This group seems to have a Napier Sabre. They plan to get the Typhoon flying by 2024.
aeropilot said:
CanAm said:
Ayahuasca said:
https://uckfieldnews.com/hawker-typhoon-enthuisast...
This group seems to have a Napier Sabre. They plan to get the Typhoon flying by 2024.
And just need £5m to do it. This group seems to have a Napier Sabre. They plan to get the Typhoon flying by 2024.
CanAm said:
aeropilot said:
CanAm said:
Ayahuasca said:
https://uckfieldnews.com/hawker-typhoon-enthuisast...
This group seems to have a Napier Sabre. They plan to get the Typhoon flying by 2024.
And just need £5m to do it. This group seems to have a Napier Sabre. They plan to get the Typhoon flying by 2024.
aeropilot said:
CanAm said:
aeropilot said:
CanAm said:
Ayahuasca said:
https://uckfieldnews.com/hawker-typhoon-enthuisast...
This group seems to have a Napier Sabre. They plan to get the Typhoon flying by 2024.
And just need £5m to do it. This group seems to have a Napier Sabre. They plan to get the Typhoon flying by 2024.
dr_gn said:
Not enough based on what?
Not enough based on what it costs/has costed to rebuild/recreate other similar aircraft that are not as rare in terms of parts supply, and engine costs, and have less that needs to be built from scratch with next to no available experience....It all depends on how much is done for free by volunteers - and how much has to contracted out to commercial shops.....the more you have done by unpaid volunteers the less money you need, but the longer it will take.
These people are making very bold claims in both money and time - so if its being done commercially by pro's, then they will need more than £5m.....especially to make that very bold 2024 dateline of flying, which is always a bold thing to say.
The first of the airworthy Mosquito's turned out by Avspecs in NZ cost US$7m+ and they had a pretty much complete kits of parts, run of mill Merlins, and even other static examples to reference, and being only 20 odd years since the last ones were flying.
That was almost a piece of cake to getting a Tiffie back in the air - and costs are more here in the UK, so again, doing this for £5m I believe is going to be a tough ask.
Economies of scale, especially regarding the engine would be the only way of trying to reduce costs, and you'd need the all Sabre interested parties (that's 3 I can think of, maybe 4) to get to together - but I doubt that will happen.
Anything is possible, it takes money.
(but a lot of it!!)
aeropilot said:
dr_gn said:
Not enough based on what?
Not enough based on what it costs/has costed to rebuild/recreate other similar aircraft that are not as rare in terms of parts supply, and engine costs, and have less that needs to be built from scratch with next to no available experience....It all depends on how much is done for free by volunteers - and how much has to contracted out to commercial shops.....the more you have done by unpaid volunteers the less money you need, but the longer it will take.
These people are making very bold claims in both money and time - so if its being done commercially by pro's, then they will need more than £5m.....especially to make that very bold 2024 dateline of flying, which is always a bold thing to say.
The first of the airworthy Mosquito's turned out by Avspecs in NZ cost US$7m+ and they had a pretty much complete kits of parts, run of mill Merlins, and even other static examples to reference, and being only 20 odd years since the last ones were flying.
That was almost a piece of cake to getting a Tiffie back in the air - and costs are more here in the UK, so again, doing this for £5m I believe is going to be a tough ask.
Economies of scale, especially regarding the engine would be the only way of trying to reduce costs, and you'd need the all Sabre interested parties (that's 3 I can think of, maybe 4) to get to together - but I doubt that will happen.
Anything is possible, it takes money.
(but a lot of it!!)
So the unknown (ie potentially costly) part really is stripping an existing engine, checking every part and re-making any u/s items. Also sourcing any rare ancillary parts, or materials to re-make parts.
I’d have thought £5m will either get you most or all the way there, or you’d find a show stopper while evaluating the engine, which would re-focus the project or abandon it altogether.
Yertis said:
Sad but true. Still, who’d have guessed at Tornado happening? So maybe we’ll see a Typhoon yet.
Tornado (assuming you meant the train) doesn't have to fly....As for whether it costs £5M, £3M or £7M to restore a Typhoon, it's hardly worth arguing about because nobody knows. And even if you costed it down to the last bolt, you can be sure it would still be double.
Simpo Two said:
Tornado (assuming you meant the train) doesn't have to fly....
As for whether it costs £5M, £3M or £7M to restore a Typhoon, it's hardly worth arguing about because nobody knows. And even if you costed it down to the last bolt, you can be sure it would still be double.
Well I don't want to be negative, hence my mention of the locomotive. But frankly I can't see it flying, if only because of the Sabre.As for whether it costs £5M, £3M or £7M to restore a Typhoon, it's hardly worth arguing about because nobody knows. And even if you costed it down to the last bolt, you can be sure it would still be double.
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