Would you fly on a 737 Max?
Discussion
Magnum 475 said:
Shy Torque said:
eharding said:
Whilst public faith in Boeing has been justifiably shaken by the 737 Max debacle, if you think there aren't problems with other types just waiting - sometime for decades - to come out and kill you, then you're mistaken.
A BA mate was flying a 747 from Johannesburg a few years ago when, just after take off, a fault that had been buried in the design of the thrust reverser system for probably 20 years caused the leading edge slats to retract, leaving the aircraft on the bleeding edge of a stall and going down into the built up area north of the airport. His wife, also a BA pilot, was in the first class cabin travelling as a passenger, could hear the stick shaker going off in the flight deck above her as he was trying to keep the thing in the air, which thankfully he did. But it was a very close run thing, and whilst you would hope any line pilot who just happened to be the one handling the aircraft that day would have also held it together, the fact he was also an accomplished aerobatic pilot and therefore more familiar than most with dancing on the edge of departure from controlled flight certainly didn't hurt.
You can probably find lots of cases of hidden design faults causing potential accidents after years in unblemished service, but that's just one I'm personally familiar with. Of course, that's another example of a Boeing issue, but if you're going to boycott the Max you might want to consider just not going on a Boeing at all (and content yourself with fretting about the Airbus you're travelling in suddenly having a mind of it's own....)
As an aside, after that event, BA pilots were given the Jo’burg scenario in the simulator - a lot didn’t manage it.A BA mate was flying a 747 from Johannesburg a few years ago when, just after take off, a fault that had been buried in the design of the thrust reverser system for probably 20 years caused the leading edge slats to retract, leaving the aircraft on the bleeding edge of a stall and going down into the built up area north of the airport. His wife, also a BA pilot, was in the first class cabin travelling as a passenger, could hear the stick shaker going off in the flight deck above her as he was trying to keep the thing in the air, which thankfully he did. But it was a very close run thing, and whilst you would hope any line pilot who just happened to be the one handling the aircraft that day would have also held it together, the fact he was also an accomplished aerobatic pilot and therefore more familiar than most with dancing on the edge of departure from controlled flight certainly didn't hurt.
You can probably find lots of cases of hidden design faults causing potential accidents after years in unblemished service, but that's just one I'm personally familiar with. Of course, that's another example of a Boeing issue, but if you're going to boycott the Max you might want to consider just not going on a Boeing at all (and content yourself with fretting about the Airbus you're travelling in suddenly having a mind of it's own....)
This doesn't alter my feeling that the Max is pushing the 737 design too far, and Boeing really should have designed a new airframe from zero, rather than trying to evolve an old design in this case.
surveyor said:
It could be disabled. It was the crew that were not briefed as to what it did, that it was there and how it could be disabled. As I read it you had to be quick though, or you lost the recoverable opportunity.
The first crew didn’t know about it but the second should have. Boeing had published plenty of information about it after the first crash.aeropilot said:
dantournay said:
DC10 was the only aircraft I've been genuinely concerned about flying in. Only after we landed did I tell the oblivious Mrs and her friends about its safety record. Happily the return flight was massively delayed 15 hours and we came back on an unbranded chartered TriStar with bits of interior trim missing. Felt a million times more comfortable although that wasn't a view shared by most on the flight.
I only flew on a DC-10 once, well twice in reality with the return trip. It was back in 1991, and I flew from Gatwick to Atlanta on one (and back to LGW) but I doubt I gave to a thought back then, and I can't even remember which airline it was! I think it would have been Delta?Got a bit twitchy after the Chicago accident and the Turkish Airlines disaster, but never had any problems on my flights.
El stovey said:
surveyor said:
It could be disabled. It was the crew that were not briefed as to what it did, that it was there and how it could be disabled. As I read it you had to be quick though, or you lost the recoverable opportunity.
The first crew didn’t know about it but the second should have. Boeing had published plenty of information about it after the first crash.Shy Torque said:
eharding said:
Whilst public faith in Boeing has been justifiably shaken by the 737 Max debacle, if you think there aren't problems with other types just waiting - sometime for decades - to come out and kill you, then you're mistaken.
A BA mate was flying a 747 from Johannesburg a few years ago when, just after take off, a fault that had been buried in the design of the thrust reverser system for probably 20 years caused the leading edge slats to retract, leaving the aircraft on the bleeding edge of a stall and going down into the built up area north of the airport. His wife, also a BA pilot, was in the first class cabin travelling as a passenger, could hear the stick shaker going off in the flight deck above her as he was trying to keep the thing in the air, which thankfully he did. But it was a very close run thing, and whilst you would hope any line pilot who just happened to be the one handling the aircraft that day would have also held it together, the fact he was also an accomplished aerobatic pilot and therefore more familiar than most with dancing on the edge of departure from controlled flight certainly didn't hurt.
You can probably find lots of cases of hidden design faults causing potential accidents after years in unblemished service, but that's just one I'm personally familiar with. Of course, that's another example of a Boeing issue, but if you're going to boycott the Max you might want to consider just not going on a Boeing at all (and content yourself with fretting about the Airbus you're travelling in suddenly having a mind of it's own....)
As an aside, after that event, BA pilots were given the Jo’burg scenario in the simulator - a lot didn’t manage it.A BA mate was flying a 747 from Johannesburg a few years ago when, just after take off, a fault that had been buried in the design of the thrust reverser system for probably 20 years caused the leading edge slats to retract, leaving the aircraft on the bleeding edge of a stall and going down into the built up area north of the airport. His wife, also a BA pilot, was in the first class cabin travelling as a passenger, could hear the stick shaker going off in the flight deck above her as he was trying to keep the thing in the air, which thankfully he did. But it was a very close run thing, and whilst you would hope any line pilot who just happened to be the one handling the aircraft that day would have also held it together, the fact he was also an accomplished aerobatic pilot and therefore more familiar than most with dancing on the edge of departure from controlled flight certainly didn't hurt.
You can probably find lots of cases of hidden design faults causing potential accidents after years in unblemished service, but that's just one I'm personally familiar with. Of course, that's another example of a Boeing issue, but if you're going to boycott the Max you might want to consider just not going on a Boeing at all (and content yourself with fretting about the Airbus you're travelling in suddenly having a mind of it's own....)
uncinqsix said:
KieronGSi said:
The second crew were fairly inexperienced on the MAX with only a 159hrs on type between them.
Time on the MAX is irrelevant surely? After all, Boeing sold it at being essentially identical to NG in terms of pilot ratings... MarkwG said:
In theory, yes; it looks like in practice, maybe not. My understanding is that the guiding idea behind the MCAS system was to make the MAX handle in a similar manner to previous generations, which don't have MCAS fitted: so adding something to make the aircraft behave the same, but with the conflicting ambition of reducing the need & cost of training to transition across. I guess the lawyers will be arguing who should have told who about the subtle differences will take years.
Not really Mark. The MCAS should normally never come into use unless the crew are having a particularly bad day at the office. So I’m not so use it had no effect on the everydayhandling.It is a regulatory airworthiness requirement that dealt with the lift generated by the engines cowls at high angle of attack adversely affecting the stall characteristics.
As said on many forums many times, they pushed the original design too far due to a business decision.
Engineers that worried in Boeing a long time have said that the company had accountants running the show and this is the result.
How nobody is going to jail for this is a crime in itself. The design of MCAS and failure to inform airlines and crew about it is unforgivable.
Unbusy said:
Not really Mark. The MCAS should normally never come into use unless the crew are having a particularly bad day at the office. So I’m not so use it had no effect on the everydayhandling.
It is a regulatory airworthiness requirement that dealt with the lift generated by the engines cowls at high angle of attack adversely affecting the stall characteristics.
As said on many forums many times, they pushed the original design too far due to a business decision.
Engineers that worried in Boeing a long time have said that the company had accountants running the show and this is the result.
How nobody is going to jail for this is a crime in itself. The design of MCAS and failure to inform airlines and crew about it is unforgivable.
putting to one side whether or not the design should have been modified + compensated this way, would the function of MCAS possibly have been better if implemented as part of an integrated FBW flight control suite rather than a standalone system on an airliner already using what I understand is part-hydraulic, part FBW control systems?It is a regulatory airworthiness requirement that dealt with the lift generated by the engines cowls at high angle of attack adversely affecting the stall characteristics.
As said on many forums many times, they pushed the original design too far due to a business decision.
Engineers that worried in Boeing a long time have said that the company had accountants running the show and this is the result.
How nobody is going to jail for this is a crime in itself. The design of MCAS and failure to inform airlines and crew about it is unforgivable.
I know there's a lot of opinion on FBW/computer interpreted flight control so don't mean to start that specific argument... Just this approach appears to a casual observer a bit of dogs dinner
Unbusy said:
MarkwG said:
In theory, yes; it looks like in practice, maybe not. My understanding is that the guiding idea behind the MCAS system was to make the MAX handle in a similar manner to previous generations, which don't have MCAS fitted: so adding something to make the aircraft behave the same, but with the conflicting ambition of reducing the need & cost of training to transition across. I guess the lawyers will be arguing who should have told who about the subtle differences will take years.
Not really Mark. The MCAS should normally never come into use unless the crew are having a particularly bad day at the office. So I’m not so use it had no effect on the everydayhandling.It is a regulatory airworthiness requirement that dealt with the lift generated by the engines cowls at high angle of attack adversely affecting the stall characteristics.
As said on many forums many times, they pushed the original design too far due to a business decision.
Engineers that worried in Boeing a long time have said that the company had accountants running the show and this is the result.
How nobody is going to jail for this is a crime in itself. The design of MCAS and failure to inform airlines and crew about it is unforgivable.
Just to add further woes to Boeing's situation........nice big fine and a big remedial works bill to fix a load of 787's that have not been built very well.......oh dear.
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-boeing-787-excl...
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-boeing-787-excl...
Does anyone in the industry actually trust Boeing anymore?
I've read so many stories now about their leadership, their culture, issue after issue with their planes and the ongoing failure to change their spots that I'm surprised anyone in the market wants to touch them.
I've no doubt Airbus aren't perfect...but I've seen far less evidence of institutional arrogance there.
I've read so many stories now about their leadership, their culture, issue after issue with their planes and the ongoing failure to change their spots that I'm surprised anyone in the market wants to touch them.
I've no doubt Airbus aren't perfect...but I've seen far less evidence of institutional arrogance there.
Just a thought - But with Portugal given the green light for holidays and the confusion over the amber light restrictions.. Families are now flying on holiday again so I imagine the 737 MAX is getting plenty of use! I wonder if during the passengers pre-flight safety briefing, the hostess announcing the wonderful new 737 MAX they are about to fly on.......!
I took an Alitalia DC-9 flight from Gatwick to Pisa once where the cabin lights went off for a while on taxi, then came on again.
The incredibly attractive and surly stewardesses crossed themselves and started nervously chatting, one sat opposite me was doing her rosary as we took off.
Can't imagine boarding a 737-Max would hold anymore trepidation than that take off!
The incredibly attractive and surly stewardesses crossed themselves and started nervously chatting, one sat opposite me was doing her rosary as we took off.
Can't imagine boarding a 737-Max would hold anymore trepidation than that take off!
Stick Legs said:
I took an Alitalia DC-9 flight from Gatwick to Pisa once where the cabin lights went off for a while on taxi, then came on again.
The incredibly attractive and surly stewardesses crossed themselves and started nervously chatting, one sat opposite me was doing her rosary as we took off.
Can't imagine boarding a 737-Max would hold anymore trepidation than that take off!
Are you sure she wasn't just pulling a string of beads out of her bottom? The incredibly attractive and surly stewardesses crossed themselves and started nervously chatting, one sat opposite me was doing her rosary as we took off.
Can't imagine boarding a 737-Max would hold anymore trepidation than that take off!
CeramicMX5ND2 said:
Just a thought - But with Portugal given the green light for holidays and the confusion over the amber light restrictions.. Families are now flying on holiday again so I imagine the 737 MAX is getting plenty of use! I wonder if during the passengers pre-flight safety briefing, the hostess announcing the wonderful new 737 MAX they are about to fly on.......!
AFAIK only TUI and FR are airlines operating between the UK and Portugal at the moment, who either have MAXs in the fleet or on order. However the MAX only makes up a minority of those 737 fleets at present, as both operate a majority of -800s. My guess is that only the -800 variant will be operated until demand picks up, as this is easier from a crewing, operational and engineering point of view. Plus crews will be rusty, so the familiarity of the -800 will be a wise choice for pilots to stick on until they’re back comfortably in the saddle.
Investors sue Boeing.
"...said the real victims were those who died and their families but investors had also "lost billions of dollars".
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-58483150
"...said the real victims were those who died and their families but investors had also "lost billions of dollars".
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-58483150
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