Would you fly on a 737 Max?
Discussion
Eric Mc said:
Ayahuasca said:
Interested in why you say that. The history of aviation is one of identifying design problems (ideally before they kill people, admittedly) and engineering solutions. Why is this different?
The problem with the 737 Max is rather more subtle. It turns out that the Max has been modified to such an extent from the older 737 designs that the basic airframe now has a major aerodynamic flaw which, it seems, can only be cured by a software fix.It's one thing designing a new locking mechanism for a cargo door. It's another where the plane is fundamentally aerodynamically flawed and dependent on code to stay safe in certain, not even extreme, flight regimes.
Eric Mc said:
It's another where the plane is fundamentally aerodynamically flawed and dependent on code to stay safe in certain, not even extreme, flight regimes.
The Eurofighter is fundamentally flawed aerodynamically and seems to fly okay? If the computer crashes (for want of a better phrase) on that then you have only a short while before the aircraft goes down too! Condi said:
Eric Mc said:
It's another where the plane is fundamentally aerodynamically flawed and dependent on code to stay safe in certain, not even extreme, flight regimes.
The Eurofighter is fundamentally flawed aerodynamically and seems to fly okay? Dr Jekyll said:
Is the 737 Max issue any more fundamental than the stall issue with certain jets that was 'solved' by fitting a stick shaker to discourage the pilots from getting anywhere near a stall? It seems to me the big problem with the Max was largely that the bodge didn't warn the pilots of an apparent problem but simply took over.
Exactly.Nothing aerodynamically so bad here, just that they wanted to save the airlines money by not having the pilots re-train.
aeropilot said:
There's a reason for that, and its not a reason desired in a commercial airliner....and a pointless comparison!
Yes and no... I know there is a reason for it, but my point was that in the modern world, where everything is computer driven and computers can do lots of things better than a human can, there is no fundamental reason that a commercial airliner cannot be mainly flown by computer.
Condi said:
The Eurofighter is fundamentally flawed aerodynamically and seems to fly okay? If the computer crashes (for want of a better phrase) on that then you have only a short while before the aircraft goes down too!
Difference being that you've 'only' lost a pilot (and an eye-wateringly expensive bit of kit) as opposed to several hundred people
Condi said:
aeropilot said:
There's a reason for that, and its not a reason desired in a commercial airliner....and a pointless comparison!
Yes and no... I know there is a reason for it, but my point was that in the modern world, where everything is computer driven and computers can do lots of things better than a human can, there is no fundamental reason that a commercial airliner cannot be mainly flown by computer.
Edited by Halmyre on Tuesday 3rd November 18:56
Ayahuasca said:
On the OP’s original question, flying these days is such a monumental ball-ache - working out changing COVID restrictions, getting tested, layover times, baggage allowances, costs, overnight hotels, face masks, taxis, etc, etc that the very last thing I would do is cancel and start all over again if it happened to be a 737Max.
Oh I agree. Which is why I would try and use a carrier I knew didn’t fly the MAX when first looking to book my tickets. Oh and n the note raised previously about Typhoon flying quite happily but aerodynamically flawed. I’ve never worked typhoon (Tornado, Hercules, Nimrod, Sentry) but it has about a dozen computers that slowly go in to different reversion modes as one fails it is effectively picked up by the remaining. I’m gong to guess it could lose nearly all before it becomes un-flyable.
The Herc for example has 2 main computers and 2 backup units that are primarily there for converting analogue to digital signals as there primary function (can’t remember the LRU name as it’s been 6 years) it both main computer we’re to fail then these two backups continue there primary role but run as the reversionary main computer.
If you loose all 4 computers there is a final get you home mode with very limited information (enough to fly).
The chances of all these computers failing simultaneously must be greater than winning the lottery.
Edited by MB140 on Tuesday 3rd November 19:03
Halmyre said:
I thought they mainly were? Autopilot, autolanding, etc., all Roger Ramjet up front really has to do is speak reassuringly to the passengers and inveigle his way into the chief steward's knickers.
..and recognise when the MCAS is operating on poor data and will induce a negative altitude situation if it isn't overridden with some old fashioned flying skills.LotusOmega375D said:
Does nobody remember the song “Albert Hammond Bootleg” by Half Man Half Biscuit?
“I hope your plane back home’s a DC10”
Full lyrics here:
https://halfmanhalfbiscuit.uk/back-in-the-dhss/alb...
How about the Clash 'Spanish bomb's' tune- 'I'm flying in on a DC-10 tonight'
“I hope your plane back home’s a DC10”
Full lyrics here:
https://halfmanhalfbiscuit.uk/back-in-the-dhss/alb...
How about the Clash 'Spanish bomb's' tune- 'I'm flying in on a DC-10 tonight'
To push it further, would anyone actively refuse to fly on one, if say, there was a last minute change of aircraft on a flight they've booked?
I booked a specific Hong Kong flight for an A380, and then it got switched to a 777. I was gutted as I had never flown on an A380 (never will!) but the effort required to change it, even a few days in advance, was a bit much.
Out in the real world 95% of people are not going to know or care what they are flying on, particularly so for short haul flights which will be the bread and butter for this plane.
I booked a specific Hong Kong flight for an A380, and then it got switched to a 777. I was gutted as I had never flown on an A380 (never will!) but the effort required to change it, even a few days in advance, was a bit much.
Out in the real world 95% of people are not going to know or care what they are flying on, particularly so for short haul flights which will be the bread and butter for this plane.
Last year I was sat next to a Southwest Airlines captain (his name was Captain Kirk....) on a flight to San Antonio and got chatting about the max. He showed me the CBT training package they’d been given regarding the MCAS issue and said he would be more than happy to fly and fly on the Max. I wouldn’t hesitate to get on one.
Condi said:
Eric Mc said:
It's another where the plane is fundamentally aerodynamically flawed and dependent on code to stay safe in certain, not even extreme, flight regimes.
The Eurofighter is fundamentally flawed aerodynamically and seems to fly okay? If the computer crashes (for want of a better phrase) on that then you have only a short while before the aircraft goes down too! The first front line Fly By Wire fighter was the General Dynamics F-16 which flew in prototype form in 1974.
The F-16 has been in service over 40 years now so software problems that were inherent in the original aircraft have long since been ironed out. And there were such problems - one which involved General Dynamics in a major law suit with a family of a test pilot who was killed during testing.
Finding out by killing 300 plus people that you have a software problem is not the best way to go about sorting out said software problems.
Edited by Eric Mc on Wednesday 4th November 10:28
Piginapoke said:
Dr Jekyll said:
I'd be happy to fly on it. Even without the fix, the problem would only occur in a particular set of circumstances which everyone remotely involved now knows about.
I think you might be in the minority with that! 
I’d fly on it and would have without the fix too.
It was pretty well publicised in the end and airlines were training pilots about it extensively.
djc206 said:
Last year I was sat next to a Southwest Airlines captain (his name was Captain Kirk....) on a flight to San Antonio and got chatting about the max. He showed me the CBT training package they’d been given regarding the MCAS issue and said he would be more than happy to fly and fly on the Max. I wouldn’t hesitate to get on one.
Same here, I know Max pilots and they’re the same. I think the issues were pretty well covered and everyone knows what’s what. I’d be quite happy to get on one too.Leon R said:
poo at Paul's said:
I've flown some ropey old stuff myself in my time and flown on some airlines with less that immaculate service records. I race motorbikes, ski, board, do trackdays etc, so am not risk averse. But if i was waiting to board and saw it was a 737 Max, i think i'd be very cautious getting on! I can see myself thinking, "nope" and finding an alternative route / aircraft. Not 100%, but likely.
I'd certainly try to avoid one when booking a flight!
When you say ropey what do you mean? I'd certainly try to avoid one when booking a flight!
Everything you have listed seems like a much bigger risk to personal safety than flying on an aircraft with an issue that every pilot in the world must be aware of.
The continued fear of the Max is usually based on a lack of understanding of the issues and how they should be handled in flight.
Besides the DC-10, any other aircraft get a mention by name? I've found two:
As that ground crew pushes us backwards
On that rickety L-1011
I'm feeling around for that flotation device
And when the safety film is shown
I'm payin' close attention
Beat-up old jetliner
Hope you got a tune-up today
Ohhhh, beat-up old jetliner
Did they sneak you past the FAA?
and
We got a 747 coming down in the night
There's no power, there's no runway lights
Radio operator try to get a message through
Tell the flight deck New York has no lights
There's no power, what do we do
As that ground crew pushes us backwards
On that rickety L-1011
I'm feeling around for that flotation device
And when the safety film is shown
I'm payin' close attention
Beat-up old jetliner
Hope you got a tune-up today
Ohhhh, beat-up old jetliner
Did they sneak you past the FAA?
and
We got a 747 coming down in the night
There's no power, there's no runway lights
Radio operator try to get a message through
Tell the flight deck New York has no lights
There's no power, what do we do
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