Red Arrows post 2025 Hawk retirement ?
Discussion
Tony1963 said:
My view, as an ex-RAF cynic, still in aviation.
The Red Arrows are pretty much irrelevant. The displays are tame and quiet, the aircraft outdated.
The cost to the RAF is huge, with few air shows left to make it all worthwhile.
Their safety record isn’t something to be proud of.
I’d rather see the money spent on the BBMF and some fuel for Typhoon and F-35 displays.
Don't disagree and I don't think the hawk helps. I have found some of the European e.g. Swiss and Italian displays, much more entertaining in recent years. The Red Arrows are pretty much irrelevant. The displays are tame and quiet, the aircraft outdated.
The cost to the RAF is huge, with few air shows left to make it all worthwhile.
Their safety record isn’t something to be proud of.
I’d rather see the money spent on the BBMF and some fuel for Typhoon and F-35 displays.
I would also rather see 2x ultra modern (or Cold War
) fast jets engage in a dogfighting style display rather than large numbers in formation flying with smoke. Also there are very few airshows. RIAT has been cnx 2 years on the trot (not its fault) but the weather made it a washout the previous three anyway - so that's five years without a full programme.
ExcitableBoy said:
Tony1963 said:
My view, as an ex-RAF cynic, still in aviation.
The Red Arrows are pretty much irrelevant. The displays are tame and quiet, the aircraft outdated.
The cost to the RAF is huge, with few air shows left to make it all worthwhile.
Their safety record isn’t something to be proud of.
I’d rather see the money spent on the BBMF and some fuel for Typhoon and F-35 displays.
Don't disagree and I don't think the hawk helps. I have found some of the European e.g. Swiss and Italian displays, much more entertaining in recent years. The Red Arrows are pretty much irrelevant. The displays are tame and quiet, the aircraft outdated.
The cost to the RAF is huge, with few air shows left to make it all worthwhile.
Their safety record isn’t something to be proud of.
I’d rather see the money spent on the BBMF and some fuel for Typhoon and F-35 displays.
I would also rather see 2x ultra modern (or Cold War
) fast jets engage in a dogfighting style display rather than large numbers in formation flying with smoke. The best example I've seen made a virtue out of the ancient and unreliable hardware being operated - I saw the Snowbirds display at Oshkosh in 2016, where they had an aircraft become unserviceable during the display - rather than knock it off or continue one short, they held off for 10 minutes whilst the broken aircraft landed, and the pilot jumped into the spare which the ground crew had ready to go, re-joined the formation and they carried on.
Tony1963 said:
My view, as an ex-RAF cynic, still in aviation.
The Red Arrows are pretty much irrelevant. The displays are tame and quiet, the aircraft outdated.
The cost to the RAF is huge, with few air shows left to make it all worthwhile.
Their safety record isn’t something to be proud of.
I’d rather see the money spent on the BBMF and some fuel for Typhoon and F-35 displays.
Love the tiffy, but hawks are much more suitable for the kids and old folk that prefer a whoosh to a Roar. The Red Arrows are pretty much irrelevant. The displays are tame and quiet, the aircraft outdated.
The cost to the RAF is huge, with few air shows left to make it all worthwhile.
Their safety record isn’t something to be proud of.
I’d rather see the money spent on the BBMF and some fuel for Typhoon and F-35 displays.
eharding said:
The best example I've seen made a virtue out of the ancient and unreliable hardware being operated - I saw the Snowbirds display at Oshkosh in 2016, where they had an aircraft become unserviceable during the display - rather than knock it off or continue one short, they held off for 10 minutes whilst the broken aircraft landed, and the pilot jumped into the spare which the ground crew had ready to go, re-joined the formation and they carried on.
You'll doubtless be aware of the other incidents over recent years involving the Snowbirds' ancient and unreliable hardware that didn't have such happy endings ....Edited by Seight_Returns on Tuesday 23 March 14:34
Evanivitch said:
Tony1963 said:
My view, as an ex-RAF cynic, still in aviation.
The Red Arrows are pretty much irrelevant. The displays are tame and quiet, the aircraft outdated.
The cost to the RAF is huge, with few air shows left to make it all worthwhile.
Their safety record isn’t something to be proud of.
I’d rather see the money spent on the BBMF and some fuel for Typhoon and F-35 displays.
Love the tiffy, but hawks are much more suitable for the kids and old folk that prefer a whoosh to a Roar. The Red Arrows are pretty much irrelevant. The displays are tame and quiet, the aircraft outdated.
The cost to the RAF is huge, with few air shows left to make it all worthwhile.
Their safety record isn’t something to be proud of.
I’d rather see the money spent on the BBMF and some fuel for Typhoon and F-35 displays.
eharding said:
The large formation displays do however promote the huge amount of team work and discipline it takes to make them function - I've done a fair amount of formation flying in the past, and every time you add an aircraft to the formation the complexity increases substantially.
Absolutely, and they are a great recruiting and feel good tool. But, I think other countries do it more entertainingly. Though as a useful skill (caveated with: I have never been in a moving fast jet), I don't think we are going to do much operational formation flying ever again, outside of a handful of planes refueling or convoying with much greater separation
- certainly not waves of attack aircraft seen in the second world war.
I think its becoming a bit "steam railway" and i'd rather preserve a few airframes of each of our significant aircraft than a display team.
Seight_Returns said:
eharding said:
The best example I've seen made a virtue out of the ancient and unreliable hardware being operated - I saw the Snowbirds display at Oshkosh in 2016, where they had an aircraft become unserviceable during the display - rather than knock it off or continue one short, they held off for 10 minutes whilst the broken aircraft landed, and the pilot jumped into the spare which the ground crew had ready to go, re-joined the formation and they carried on.
You'll doubtless be aware of the other incidents over recent years involving the Snowbirds' ancient and unreliable hardware that didn't have such happy endings ....Edited by Seight_Returns on Tuesday 23 March 14:34
I remember sitting in a briefing during one North Weald formation week when an ex-Snowbird instructor was explaining to a serving RAF Air Vice Marshal (now an Air Marshal) who was also flying with us that week that we needed to "Eat some eggs" after a goat on the previous sortie. Not understanding, said AVM looked round perplexed, and someone had to explain to him that it meant we had to get our s
t together.....Edited by eharding on Tuesday 23 March 15:07
ExcitableBoy said:
Though as a useful skill (caveated with: I have never been in a moving fast jet), I don't think we are going to do much operational formation flying ever again, outside of a handful of planes refueling or convoying with much greater separation
- certainly not waves of attack aircraft seen in the second world war.
Tactical formation, as opposed to close formation, is very much still a thing, and arguably a lot more challenging, as you can have elements deliberately closing with each other at high speed - we used to do a bit of that at North Weald, and even in the lumbering Yaks assisted turns, shackles and opposition 180 turns made you very conscious of how quickly things could go pear-shaped. - certainly not waves of attack aircraft seen in the second world war.
Edited by eharding on Tuesday 23 March 15:09
Just casually had a look at the Reds' web site.
They have a really cool interactive animation that's arguably more interesting and certainly more informative than watching an actual display !
https://www.raf.mod.uk/display-teams/red-arrows/di...
They have a really cool interactive animation that's arguably more interesting and certainly more informative than watching an actual display !
https://www.raf.mod.uk/display-teams/red-arrows/di...
Dashnine said:
The problem with the faster jets is they take longer to turn around. I remember seeing the Thunderbirds in their F-16s and they were out of sight half the time.
The Typhoon can easily, in a solo display, perform within an airfield’s boundary. So could the Tornado. And the Harrier lol 
Tony1963 said:
Dashnine said:
The problem with the faster jets is they take longer to turn around. I remember seeing the Thunderbirds in their F-16s and they were out of sight half the time.
The Typhoon can easily, in a solo display, perform within an airfield’s boundary. So could the Tornado. And the Harrier lol Tony1963 said:
My view, as an ex-RAF cynic, still in aviation.
The Red Arrows are pretty much irrelevant. The displays are tame and quiet, the aircraft outdated.
The cost to the RAF is huge, with few air shows left to make it all worthwhile.
Their safety record isn’t something to be proud of.
I’d rather see the money spent on the BBMF and some fuel for Typhoon and F-35 displays.
Agree with you on that.The Red Arrows are pretty much irrelevant. The displays are tame and quiet, the aircraft outdated.
The cost to the RAF is huge, with few air shows left to make it all worthwhile.
Their safety record isn’t something to be proud of.
I’d rather see the money spent on the BBMF and some fuel for Typhoon and F-35 displays.
I question whether the Reds are a cost effective recruiting tool. The teenage me was far more inspired by Harriers and Tornados doing their noisy thing than the Red Arrows.
swampy442 said:
Reds to remain until 2030.
Also, despite opinions expressed, as an ex Reds ground crew member for many years, I cant tell you the operating costs are nowhere near as bad as you think
When money is so tight, the personnel, spares, fuel, facilities etc all mount up. Nine years to go, then bye bye I’d guess. Also, despite opinions expressed, as an ex Reds ground crew member for many years, I cant tell you the operating costs are nowhere near as bad as you think
As others have said, T2 isn’t particularly well suited to close formation flying and we only have about 30, so taking 12-14 out of the training fleet to paint red and fit with smoke pods isnt going to happen given we have nothing else for fast jet training.
I guess as air shows have changed in recent times, as a result of accidents, there isn’t much call for a display team. Last time I saw them they seemed very far away with only fast passes over the arena/airfield.
Running costs for the Reds are indeed, remarkably low and most of them have enough fatigue in major components to see them through to 2030. It would be nice if the RAF still had an aerobatic display team so maybe they could use T6s?
As others have said, red air requirements for training will be contracted out which makes perfect sense. Let someone else worry about availability and maintenance, we just say we want x aircraft in the sky on a certain day to carry out the agreed sorties.
I guess as air shows have changed in recent times, as a result of accidents, there isn’t much call for a display team. Last time I saw them they seemed very far away with only fast passes over the arena/airfield.
Running costs for the Reds are indeed, remarkably low and most of them have enough fatigue in major components to see them through to 2030. It would be nice if the RAF still had an aerobatic display team so maybe they could use T6s?
As others have said, red air requirements for training will be contracted out which makes perfect sense. Let someone else worry about availability and maintenance, we just say we want x aircraft in the sky on a certain day to carry out the agreed sorties.
For those who never went to air shows when they really were exhilarating, try this
https://youtu.be/F1aTokZKCus
I remember many aircraft at shows would try to scare the crowd, even in the 70s and early 80s. I really miss that.
https://youtu.be/F1aTokZKCus
I remember many aircraft at shows would try to scare the crowd, even in the 70s and early 80s. I really miss that.
Tony1963 said:
For those who never went to air shows when they really were exhilarating, try this
https://youtu.be/F1aTokZKCus
I remember many aircraft at shows would try to scare the crowd, even in the 70s and early 80s. I really miss that.
The Gnat Red Arrows at British GPs were way dafter than that - do a Google search for "Red Arrows Gnat Brand Hatch".https://youtu.be/F1aTokZKCus
I remember many aircraft at shows would try to scare the crowd, even in the 70s and early 80s. I really miss that.
I remember BGP about '79 probably - there was a pair of Marlboro Pitts Specials that did a crazy display right over the caravans and camping site in the centre of the circuit. We were right under it; my pal and I were terrified and amazed in equal measure (as 7 year olds). Looking back, it was just absolutely stupidly dangerous. But we loved it.
eharding said:
Tony1963 said:
Dashnine said:
The problem with the faster jets is they take longer to turn around. I remember seeing the Thunderbirds in their F-16s and they were out of sight half the time.
The Typhoon can easily, in a solo display, perform within an airfield’s boundary. So could the Tornado. And the Harrier lol Gassing Station | Boats, Planes & Trains | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff