Network rail logic

[Rick101]

I don't think the OP was complaining about the line or even maintenance of the line. If anything he seems more reasonable than most about it.

I think the query was why can the work not be done in the daytime whilst the line is closed (shown by the boxes being unmanned)

I don't know the full reasons but road access over the crossings will be part of it.

[surveyor]

andy97 said:

surveyor said:

andy97 said:

surveyor said:

Our nearest neighbour on one side is network rail with a signal box and level crossing. A certain amount of disruption was envisaged.

Last night between 9:30pm and 7:30am they were doing stuff to the level crossing noisily. More is planned on Monday and Wednesday night.

Now I get this must be done when the network is closed. However this line appears to be closed every Sunday, and certainly is this week. So why would they choose to work overnight? And if they do why stop, rather than just get ok with it and finish the job?

Oh and a special place in hell for Machines that beep in reverse!

The train and freight operating companies (TOCs and FOCs) need to railway lines to be open as much as possible to move the people and goods about that we all depend on, and there is a great seal of pressure to do as much maintenance as possible whilst the railways are still operating. However, there are some maintenance operations that require the railway to be shut to enable them to be carried out, this is known as a “possession”.
Possessions are often at night because the railways need to run during the day. Simple as that. And the TOCs and FOCs (and their customers) won’t tolerate the interruptions to their business for days at a time, hence railway maintenance is often mobilised and demobilised every night for relatively short durations of work over a period of several nights rather than just carrying on until the work is finished. It is just not feasible to stop the trains running and diversions are not as easy as on the road network. This is also why the cost of maintaining a railway is very high.
TOCs and FOCs pay for access to the rail network and there are commercial contracts in place with Network Rail for that access. If NR take a possession and then fail to hand the railway back to the operators at the agreed times for the days activities they have to pay compensation to the operators.

Great. So why take possession at night when the line is unused the next day? Why not do the work then? less sleep disruption and presumably less overtime. Or keep at it with a second shift so that it's done rather than coming back and having to take all the covers off again?

I suspect that either the line wasn’t planned to be closed next day or, alternatively, there may have been working taking place on the line that you may not necessarily have been aware of (signalling, telecoms, etc) that still needed access but also needed deconfliction from other activity.
You live near a railway line, it’s a fact of life that most maintenance takes place at night or on bank holidays. The teams will do their best to use quieter machines and to warn residents in advance but many activities are just not possible to be totally quiet. You have to accept it and get used to it.
I live near an airport, it’s the same principle. No point me moaning about aircraft noise.

Edited by andy97 on Monday 29th March 13:44

Near an airport too, but they are better neighbours.

My theory on this, given the line has been closed every Sunday for weeks is that the contractor makes more money on overnight works...

[andy97]

surveyor said:

Near an airport too, but they are better neighbours.

My theory on this, given the line has been closed every Sunday for weeks is that the contractor makes more money on overnight works...

Believe me, they would rather not work in short possessions over several nights. The costs are also massively higher and it is difficult to ensure continuity of labour. It is the rail industry users that insists on this approach to keep the trains running for the maximum time possible.

[Pothole]

surveyor said:

Near an airport too, but they are better neighbours.

My theory on this, given the line has been closed every Sunday for weeks is that the contractor makes more money on overnight works...

A theory based on a suspicion of greed, posted despite being given plenty of other reasons by posters who appear to actually know the score, tells us plenty about you.

[P5BNij]

Another point worth noting - just because a signalbox is closed or appears be, it doesn't follow that the line itself is closed, some intermediate boxes are 'switched out', with the route cleared to allow the passage of trains.

[andy97]

P5BNij said:

Another point worth noting - just because a signalbox is closed or appears be, it doesn't follow that the line itself is closed, some intermediate boxes are 'switched out', with the route cleared to allow the passage of trains.

And most lines are now controlled remotely from just a small number of regional control centres. The days of manned signal boxes being needed all over the network are very very long gone.

[surveyor]

Pothole said:

surveyor said:

Near an airport too, but they are better neighbours.

My theory on this, given the line has been closed every Sunday for weeks is that the contractor makes more money on overnight works...

A theory based on a suspicion of greed, posted despite being given plenty of other reasons by posters who appear to actually know the score, tells us plenty about you.

They have not really provided any good reasons (with the exception of one actually) why the works had to be done overnight rather than on the closed line the next day. And yes I am a tad grumpy. Another closure tonight. I will probably be grumpier tommorow!

andy97 said:

P5BNij said:

Another point worth noting - just because a signalbox is closed or appears be, it doesn't follow that the line itself is closed, some intermediate boxes are 'switched out', with the route cleared to allow the passage of trains.

And most lines are now controlled remotely from just a small number of regional control centres. The days of manned signal boxes being needed all over the network are very very long gone.

Let's put it this way, if the line was open yesterday, not a single train used it. I do not think this box has gone central yet - hopefully it will do soon.

[andy97]

surveyor said:

They have not really provided any good reasons (with the exception of one actually) why the works had to be done overnight rather than on the closed line the next day. And yes I am a tad grumpy. Another closure tonight. I will probably be grumpier tommorow!

We have tried to provide the probable answers. We don’t have the specifics for this project but No railway line is left closed during the day for the hell of it, it is just too expensive. Massively expensive. There will be good engineering and safety reasons; unfortunately you just don’t seem to want to accept that.

[surveyor]

andy97 said:

surveyor said:

They have not really provided any good reasons (with the exception of one actually) why the works had to be done overnight rather than on the closed line the next day. And yes I am a tad grumpy. Another closure tonight. I will probably be grumpier tomorrow!

We have tried to provide the probable answers. We don’t have the specifics for this project but No railway line is left closed during the day for the hell of it, it is just too expensive. Massively expensive. There will be good engineering and safety reasons; unfortunately you just don’t seem to want to accept that.

There have been no trains running on the line on Sundays for a few weeks, no idea why. There are no works going on within the immediate vicinity, but could easily be elsewhere on the line.

I'm sure there are reasons why they did not do the work during daytime. Good or not probably depends on your point of view, and I accept that.

[Rick101]

COVID timetable though this is now drawing to and end and TOC's are ramping up service again.

Whilst you're not on a particulally busy line, the Joint is a key diversionary route and will need to be maintained to a standard to remain so.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Northern_and_G...

Edited by Rick101 on Monday 29th March 18:48

[jaybarts]

Not 100% sure but it may well be that the line needed to remain open during the day as it could well be a diversion route if things were going tits up on the ECML.

Also 90% of possession’s are held overnight to minimise disruption, it could be a case of the staff working at your crossing on Sunday night and then will be needing to work in busier areas like Lincoln Mon, Tues, Weds and then Doncaster Thurs so therefore need to maintain a shift pattern.

The actual reason will most likely be that they were only granted a road closure during the night if the barriers were required to be down for extended periods.

I don’t sign the route but if I did I’d be sure to give you a friendly PH horn in the early hours

[surveyor]

jaybarts said:

Not 100% sure but it may well be that the line needed to remain open during the day as it could well be a diversion route if things were going tits up on the ECML.

Also 90% of possession’s are held overnight to minimise disruption, it could be a case of the staff working at your crossing on Sunday night and then will be needing to work in busier areas like Lincoln Mon, Tues, Weds and then Doncaster Thurs so therefore need to maintain a shift pattern.

The actual reason will most likely be that they were only granted a road closure during the night if the barriers were required to be down for extended periods.

I don’t sign the route but if I did I’d be sure to give you a friendly PH horn in the early hours

Good reasoning. Best yet... Can live without the toot

[Rick101]

Are my posts invisible?

[surveyor]

Rick101 said:

Are my posts invisible?

No sorry.... I was reading those too... Interesting history on the wiki page. Our house is very nearly photographed.

Am I right in thinking that the local crossings are still controlled from the finningley box? I have a clear idea of their shift patterns from when they used the grass in front of our home as parking space.. That at least has stopped. Mostly.

[N Dentressangle]

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/3-X-Hush-Plugz-Foam-Ear...

Seriously, try some earplugs. It sounds like there'll sometimes be inevitable works and noise, so these are the best I've found for a quiet night's sleep. Disco next door, babies, snoring etc - they stop everything.

[surveyor]

N Dentressangle said:

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/3-X-Hush-Plugz-Foam-Ear...

Seriously, try some earplugs. It sounds like there'll sometimes be inevitable works and noise, so these are the best I've found for a quiet night's sleep. Disco next door, babies, snoring etc - they stop everything.

Think we are lucky. Although the road closure notification sign is Uk no sign of any workers. I think they may be at the next crossing down tonight.

[coppernorks]

The RMT called a 24 hr strike yesterday in Scotland, no trains ran as a result, a reasonable
person would say why not use that opportunity to do maintenance or renewals that would
normally be done during the night.

Unfortunately it's not that simple, the railway works quickly in emergencies, not so quickly in planned work.

The work needs to be planned and published, contractors sought, materials ordered, plant, machinery and
engineering trains need to be in the right place at the right time, overhead powerlines isolated, work teams
briefed, transport organised, safe systems of work put in place, etc, that type of undertaking can't be done
in a few hours.

[AJB88]

surveyor said:

No sorry.... I was reading those too... Interesting history on the wiki page. Our house is very nearly photographed.

Am I right in thinking that the local crossings are still controlled from the finningley box? I have a clear idea of their shift patterns from when they used the grass in front of our home as parking space.. That at least has stopped. Mostly.

Yeh Donny box don't have direct control over them signals.

[dhutch]

Slackline said:

See if you can have a word with them, a lot of machines can be fitted with a sounder that produces a static noise instead of the beep. The sound doesn't travel as far and is far less annoying!

White noise alarms.

I would be slightly supprised if many machines are fitted with both, but then my background is OEM for ag/construction rather than rail and they do like to do things their own way!


Daniel

[2xChevrons]

Rick101 said:

Whilst you're not on a particulally busy line, the Joint is a key diversionary route and will need to be maintained to a standard to remain so.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Northern_and_G...

A tangent but:

I do find it remarkable how long names and terms linger on the railway. I'm in north Cambridgeshire and the Doncaster-Lincoln-Spalding route is still referred to as 'The Joint' nearly a century after it ceased to be a joint line. I mean, why not, since that's what it was called and everyone who needs to knows what it means, but it's an interesting artefact.

An old railwayman I once interviewed for a magazine article said that in Gloucester there was a pub just down the road from the depot which, even in the early 1980s, had a bar half painted red and half painted green as a legacy of when Gloucester was the meeting point between the Midland and GWR systems. Thirty five years after nationalisation and a century after Gloucester had ceased to be a 'border' between the two companies' territories, he - based at Toton - was still told in very strong language to stay up the red end of the bar.