Sea Fury crash - Yeovilton
Discussion
V41LEY said:
This probably isn’t unusual but 14 gallons of engine oil !
That's actually quite low for a big radial.The big US multi-row used on the likes of the DC-7 or Connie had massive oil capacity, as they burned oil like a two-stroke!
The DC-7 and Connie crews used to joke on turn-arounds "Fill er up with oil and check the fuel"
Those big compound 3 row radials used to burn oil at a rate of about 1-2 gallons per hour, per engine, and they had huge capacity oil tanks to feed the 4 engines.
Generally an owner will treat his warbird very differently to a service pilot.
When you have your own cash in the game, mechanical sympathy, meticulous attention to the finest detail, finely honed senses and caution will over-ride the pressure to perform a demonstration or to not disappoint the punters.
Stephen Grey has said as much & was always looking for those pilots who would treat his aircraft as he would.
That Sea Fury, to which I provided the links (it was ZK-SFR at the time) - I recall seeing its co-owner/pilot, Robbie Booth, withdraw from a display because he had concerns about the hydraulic pressure.
When you have your own cash in the game, mechanical sympathy, meticulous attention to the finest detail, finely honed senses and caution will over-ride the pressure to perform a demonstration or to not disappoint the punters.
Stephen Grey has said as much & was always looking for those pilots who would treat his aircraft as he would.
That Sea Fury, to which I provided the links (it was ZK-SFR at the time) - I recall seeing its co-owner/pilot, Robbie Booth, withdraw from a display because he had concerns about the hydraulic pressure.
Penguinracer said:
Generally an owner will treat his warbird very differently to a service pilot.
When you have your own cash in the game, mechanical sympathy, meticulous attention to the finest detail, finely honed senses and caution will over-ride the pressure to perform a demonstration or to not disappoint the punters.
Stephen Grey has said as much & was always looking for those pilots who would treat his aircraft as he would.
That Sea Fury, to which I provided the links (it was ZK-SFR at the time) - I recall seeing its co-owner/pilot, Robbie Booth, withdraw from a display because he had concerns about the hydraulic pressure.
Some of the US owners have a less risk averse attitude though. An owner operator of a Bearcat and Corsair, has crashed both in recent years due to a case of "get-there-itis". He crashed the Corsair in 2019, and the NTSB has just been released, and the findings amounted to "Attempted take-off with a known carburetor issue in order to get to the airshow".When you have your own cash in the game, mechanical sympathy, meticulous attention to the finest detail, finely honed senses and caution will over-ride the pressure to perform a demonstration or to not disappoint the punters.
Stephen Grey has said as much & was always looking for those pilots who would treat his aircraft as he would.
That Sea Fury, to which I provided the links (it was ZK-SFR at the time) - I recall seeing its co-owner/pilot, Robbie Booth, withdraw from a display because he had concerns about the hydraulic pressure.
"Get there-itis" - responsible for so many general aviation deaths.
Nothwithstanding that the UK is a densely populated nation with constricted airspace - there is room for the CAA to work with responsible aviators in the Warbird community rather than to throw blanket prohibitions about the place.
The cliche "Your attitude determines your altitude" is never more true than in aviation - where you're only as good as your last flight.
There are plenty of pilots in the UK warbird community with the right attitude. It's a pity they've been tarred with the same brush as those who have proven to be cavalier, reckless, negligent or arrogant.
Nothwithstanding that the UK is a densely populated nation with constricted airspace - there is room for the CAA to work with responsible aviators in the Warbird community rather than to throw blanket prohibitions about the place.
The cliche "Your attitude determines your altitude" is never more true than in aviation - where you're only as good as your last flight.
There are plenty of pilots in the UK warbird community with the right attitude. It's a pity they've been tarred with the same brush as those who have proven to be cavalier, reckless, negligent or arrogant.
Scotty2 said:
As a Chemist, I'm curious about this "special oil" that the Centaurus used. Can anyone shed some more info on the oil spec?
I wonder why it is so difficult to manufacture when there are chemical firms that can synthesise most things?
It's not difficult to manufacture.I wonder why it is so difficult to manufacture when there are chemical firms that can synthesise most things?
Shell will happily make it again, but the issue is the minimum quantity that they will consider doing it is considerable, and therefore financially prohibitive (as you need to store the stuff over the next decade or more as well)
aeropilot said:
Scotty2 said:
As a Chemist, I'm curious about this "special oil" that the Centaurus used. Can anyone shed some more info on the oil spec?
I wonder why it is so difficult to manufacture when there are chemical firms that can synthesise most things?
It's not difficult to manufacture.I wonder why it is so difficult to manufacture when there are chemical firms that can synthesise most things?
Shell will happily make it again, but the issue is the minimum quantity that they will consider doing it is considerable, and therefore financially prohibitive (as you need to store the stuff over the next decade or more as well)
AIUI the special properties of the oil are to do with the wear and sealing characteristics of the sleeve valves, given their totally different operation to normal vales. Imagine the difference between normal gearbox oil and limited slip gearbox oil, for example.
The report certainly makes interesting and slightly gory (to an engine geek!) reading!
I know its very easy for us armchair enthusiasts to say "coulda, woulda, shoulda" but the bit that sticks in my mind is that they proceeded with the flight despite the unexplained temporary drop in oil pressure before takeoff. To me that sounds like the point at which maybe the first bearings began to overheat/spin and maybe temporarily blocked an oilway causing the pressure change? Given the reliability reputation of the engine, in hindsight that was perhaps the point to have called it off and taken a look inside....
Penguinracer said:
When did this oil become NLA?
Can't remember exactly, I think commercial stocks of it were exhausted by the mid 90's from memory.....but my memory is dimming with age!I think there was assumed enough remaining MOD stock for the then RNHF to see out its likely use, especially after the loss of the FB.11 in the 80's. That was of course long before the RNHF ceased being part of the military.
The rumour is that though that the remaining stock held under the MOD contract went up with the Buncefield depot explosion. How true that bit is I have no idea, that might be all b
ks and conjecture?Had to do a bit of digging to try and remember the post on another forums years ago about the oil, and it wasn't the ex-RR engineering but someone repeating a conversation with said engineer.....but here it is:-
"A good few years ago I knew the last Rolls Royce inservice support engineer officially charged with supporting the Bristol Sleeve valves. He told the same story relating to oil and limited spare availability but added the following;-
The really significant retirement of the Bristol sleeve valve fleet was pretty advanced in the early 70’s so demand for the Shell oil ceased. Because the oil was deemed necessary for the safe operation of the engine and there were still a few operators (mainly Noratlas and Bristol Freighter) determined to continue, Rolls Royce (& Snecma) brokered a deal whereby Shell would still produce the oil to special order but only with a commitment to buy a minimum quantity. Right into the mid 80’s he organised several operator syndicate purchases which enabled some of these types to linger on, providing commercial/military service into the late 80’s, early 90’s.
When I asked about the private Sea Fury operators in the 70’s & 80’s he was less than complimentary about their attitude. They refused to accept the Rolls Royce instructions, declined invitation to join oil purchasing syndicates, and preferred to believe rumours that other oils would work just as well. The gotcha was that an engine filled with an alternate oil which would appear to being doing fine but was liable to very, very rapid deterioration and would inevitably destroy the engine, leading frequently to the loss of aircraft and sometimes the pilot. Of course when this happened the operators would always blame the engine and arrogantly never admit their wilful neglect of the manufacturers directives.
It’s a great shame that the ignorance of a few has left a perceived poor reputation on what was a magnificent piece of engineering."
"A good few years ago I knew the last Rolls Royce inservice support engineer officially charged with supporting the Bristol Sleeve valves. He told the same story relating to oil and limited spare availability but added the following;-
The really significant retirement of the Bristol sleeve valve fleet was pretty advanced in the early 70’s so demand for the Shell oil ceased. Because the oil was deemed necessary for the safe operation of the engine and there were still a few operators (mainly Noratlas and Bristol Freighter) determined to continue, Rolls Royce (& Snecma) brokered a deal whereby Shell would still produce the oil to special order but only with a commitment to buy a minimum quantity. Right into the mid 80’s he organised several operator syndicate purchases which enabled some of these types to linger on, providing commercial/military service into the late 80’s, early 90’s.
When I asked about the private Sea Fury operators in the 70’s & 80’s he was less than complimentary about their attitude. They refused to accept the Rolls Royce instructions, declined invitation to join oil purchasing syndicates, and preferred to believe rumours that other oils would work just as well. The gotcha was that an engine filled with an alternate oil which would appear to being doing fine but was liable to very, very rapid deterioration and would inevitably destroy the engine, leading frequently to the loss of aircraft and sometimes the pilot. Of course when this happened the operators would always blame the engine and arrogantly never admit their wilful neglect of the manufacturers directives.
It’s a great shame that the ignorance of a few has left a perceived poor reputation on what was a magnificent piece of engineering."
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