MH370

[youngsyr]

MarkwG said:

See the answer Prawo Jadzy gave above. I don't know what happened, conjecture really gets us nowhere, & as yet, there's no way of knowing for sure.

One of the most convincing pieces of evidence I've seen is that the cockpit masks have a separate emergency oxygen tank to the rest of the plane.

These are kept full and are rarely used, so they are typically only topped up a couple times per year.

However someone asked for them to be topped up on that plane, very shortly before take off. It wasn't noted who requested it, just that it was done and that it was done AFTER the pre flight maintenance checks had already been signed off.

Highly unusual and one of the people who could have requested it was the captain.

[CoolHands]

MarkwG said:

CoolHands said:

We know where it ended up and we know it’s not where the flight computer would have taken it. It’s preposterous to think it wasn’t all done manually by one of two people.

Sorry, didn't realise I was dealing with an aviation expert.

You responded ‘not necessarily’ to a poster who wrote “there are not any other theories that explain every aspect of it better than Captain murder/suicide“.

Looking forward to your theory about how it didn’t go north as planned.

[gazapc]

dvs_dave said:

See Helios Airways flight 552 for a real world example of that.

I've been slowly making my way through Pilot Mentor's youtube channel and just watched this one.

wow, what a crap way to go. The poor last man alive sat in the cockpit with a jet with no fuel and a cabin full of bodies.

The video in question https://youtu.be/pebpaM-Zua0?si=a30KJWWo1huiVKhA

Edited by gazapc on Sunday 17th December 23:14

[MarkwG]

CoolHands said:

MarkwG said:

CoolHands said:

We know where it ended up and we know it’s not where the flight computer would have taken it. It’s preposterous to think it wasn’t all done manually by one of two people.

Sorry, didn't realise I was dealing with an aviation expert.

You responded ‘not necessarily’ to a poster who wrote “there are not any other theories that explain every aspect of it better than Captain murder/suicide“.

Looking forward to your theory about how it didn’t go north as planned.

That isn't a theory, its supposition. No-one knows what happened on that flight, & until or unless the recorders are recovered, no-one will. I'm not about to start guessing.

[MarkwG]

youngsyr said:

MarkwG said:

See the answer Prawo Jadzy gave above. I don't know what happened, conjecture really gets us nowhere, & as yet, there's no way of knowing for sure.

One of the most convincing pieces of evidence I've seen is that the cockpit masks have a separate emergency oxygen tank to the rest of the plane.

These are kept full and are rarely used, so they are typically only topped up a couple times per year.

However someone asked for them to be topped up on that plane, very shortly before take off. It wasn't noted who requested it, just that it was done and that it was done AFTER the pre flight maintenance checks had already been signed off.

Highly unusual and one of the people who could have requested it was the captain.

Why would that be suspicious? The crew oxygen uses a different system to the cabin because the crew uses tanks, which need topping up, whereas the passenger system uses oxygen generators, which don't. The crew tanks will only need replenishment if they register low on testing, & on a long haul flight especially, are likely to be tested before each flight during the crews cockpit checks, as they're likely to be a minimum requirement for departure. If they need topping up, they need it: if they don't, they don't. If maintenance missed it then It seems more like a crew who took their responsibilities seriously to me, I'd be disappointed if they hadn't checked & corrected the issue.

[dvs_dave]

MarkwG said:

See the answer Prawo Jadzy gave above. I don't know what happened, conjecture really gets us nowhere, & as yet, there's no way of knowing for sure.

Oh come on….thats such a bullst cop out.

Why even bother commenting if you’re not prepared to discuss alternative theories?

If the wreckage and subsequent FDR and CVR are ever found, do we think any new info will be revealed as to what actually happened? It’s very likely the FDR and CVR were both probably switched off along with everything else when the plane went dark, so will contain no useful info.

[sherman]

MarkwG said:

youngsyr said:

MarkwG said:

See the answer Prawo Jadzy gave above. I don't know what happened, conjecture really gets us nowhere, & as yet, there's no way of knowing for sure.

One of the most convincing pieces of evidence I've seen is that the cockpit masks have a separate emergency oxygen tank to the rest of the plane.

These are kept full and are rarely used, so they are typically only topped up a couple times per year.

However someone asked for them to be topped up on that plane, very shortly before take off. It wasn't noted who requested it, just that it was done and that it was done AFTER the pre flight maintenance checks had already been signed off.

Highly unusual and one of the people who could have requested it was the captain.

Why would that be suspicious? The crew oxygen uses a different system to the cabin because the crew uses tanks, which need topping up, whereas the passenger system uses oxygen generators, which don't. The crew tanks will only need replenishment if they register low on testing, & on a long haul flight especially, are likely to be tested before each flight during the crews cockpit checks, as they're likely to be a minimum requirement for departure. If they need topping up, they need it: if they don't, they don't. If maintenance missed it then It seems more like a crew who took their responsibilities seriously to me, I'd be disappointed if they hadn't checked & corrected the issue.

The issue is why they needed topped up. Maybe they had a leak. Not noticed by anyone. Captain thought he had full tanks. Came to use them during the flight and nothing left/very little in the tank.

[MarkwG]

dvs_dave said:

MarkwG said:

See the answer Prawo Jadzy gave above. I don't know what happened, conjecture really gets us nowhere, & as yet, there's no way of knowing for sure.

Oh come on….thats such a bullst cop out.

Why even bother commenting if you’re not prepared to discuss alternative theories?

If the wreckage and subsequent FDR and CVR are ever found, do we think any new info will be revealed as to what actually happened? It’s very likely the FDR and CVR were both probably switched off along with everything else when the plane went dark, so will contain no useful info.

I don't answer to you & I've no intention of guessing just to make you happy. You're not the thread police, either. The gentleman I referred you to has far more experience regarding this than you, I'm absolutely certain; if you don't like it that's your problem.

[MarkwG]

sherman said:

MarkwG said:

youngsyr said:

MarkwG said:

See the answer Prawo Jadzy gave above. I don't know what happened, conjecture really gets us nowhere, & as yet, there's no way of knowing for sure.

One of the most convincing pieces of evidence I've seen is that the cockpit masks have a separate emergency oxygen tank to the rest of the plane.

These are kept full and are rarely used, so they are typically only topped up a couple times per year.

However someone asked for them to be topped up on that plane, very shortly before take off. It wasn't noted who requested it, just that it was done and that it was done AFTER the pre flight maintenance checks had already been signed off.

Highly unusual and one of the people who could have requested it was the captain.

Why would that be suspicious? The crew oxygen uses a different system to the cabin because the crew uses tanks, which need topping up, whereas the passenger system uses oxygen generators, which don't. The crew tanks will only need replenishment if they register low on testing, & on a long haul flight especially, are likely to be tested before each flight during the crews cockpit checks, as they're likely to be a minimum requirement for departure. If they need topping up, they need it: if they don't, they don't. If maintenance missed it then It seems more like a crew who took their responsibilities seriously to me, I'd be disappointed if they hadn't checked & corrected the issue.

The issue is why they needed topped up. Maybe they had a leak. Not noticed by anyone. Captain thought he had full tanks. Came to use them during the flight and nothing left/very little in the tank.

Apologies, I thought you were reading something sinister into the request: the fact that they needed topping up may indicate there was a leak, perhaps, but the request to resolve it before departure would be normal, as far as I can tell. You'd need a 777 pilot for information as to whether it's monitored live or not, & the actions to take if it is, & that shows a leak.

[youngsyr]

MarkwG said:

sherman said:

MarkwG said:

youngsyr said:

MarkwG said:

See the answer Prawo Jadzy gave above. I don't know what happened, conjecture really gets us nowhere, & as yet, there's no way of knowing for sure.

One of the most convincing pieces of evidence I've seen is that the cockpit masks have a separate emergency oxygen tank to the rest of the plane.

These are kept full and are rarely used, so they are typically only topped up a couple times per year.

However someone asked for them to be topped up on that plane, very shortly before take off. It wasn't noted who requested it, just that it was done and that it was done AFTER the pre flight maintenance checks had already been signed off.

Highly unusual and one of the people who could have requested it was the captain.

Why would that be suspicious? The crew oxygen uses a different system to the cabin because the crew uses tanks, which need topping up, whereas the passenger system uses oxygen generators, which don't. The crew tanks will only need replenishment if they register low on testing, & on a long haul flight especially, are likely to be tested before each flight during the crews cockpit checks, as they're likely to be a minimum requirement for departure. If they need topping up, they need it: if they don't, they don't. If maintenance missed it then It seems more like a crew who took their responsibilities seriously to me, I'd be disappointed if they hadn't checked & corrected the issue.

The issue is why they needed topped up. Maybe they had a leak. Not noticed by anyone. Captain thought he had full tanks. Came to use them during the flight and nothing left/very little in the tank.

Apologies, I thought you were reading something sinister into the request: the fact that they needed topping up may indicate there was a leak, perhaps, but the request to resolve it before departure would be normal, as far as I can tell. You'd need a 777 pilot for information as to whether it's monitored live or not, & the actions to take if it is, & that shows a leak.

You guys are missing the point - the standard maintenance checks were carried out pre take-off and were signed off without any defects being noted.

Then someone asked for the cockpit emergency oxygen tank to be topped off. No leak was reported.

That is highly unusual and extremely suspiscious, given the suggested murder/suicide flight that followed - it is entirely consistent with a Captain ensuring that he had enough oxygen to fly the plane after depressurising the rest of the aircraft (and thereby incapacitating everyone else on it).

[dvs_dave]

MarkwG said:

I don't answer to you & I've no intention of guessing just to make you happy. You're not the thread police, either. The gentleman I referred you to has far more experience regarding this than you, I'm absolutely certain; if you don't like it that's your problem.

Mmmkay….thanks for the waste of bandwidth. Great job!

[MarkwG]

youngsyr said:

MarkwG said:

sherman said:

MarkwG said:

youngsyr said:

MarkwG said:

See the answer Prawo Jadzy gave above. I don't know what happened, conjecture really gets us nowhere, & as yet, there's no way of knowing for sure.

One of the most convincing pieces of evidence I've seen is that the cockpit masks have a separate emergency oxygen tank to the rest of the plane.

These are kept full and are rarely used, so they are typically only topped up a couple times per year.

However someone asked for them to be topped up on that plane, very shortly before take off. It wasn't noted who requested it, just that it was done and that it was done AFTER the pre flight maintenance checks had already been signed off.

Highly unusual and one of the people who could have requested it was the captain.

Why would that be suspicious? The crew oxygen uses a different system to the cabin because the crew uses tanks, which need topping up, whereas the passenger system uses oxygen generators, which don't. The crew tanks will only need replenishment if they register low on testing, & on a long haul flight especially, are likely to be tested before each flight during the crews cockpit checks, as they're likely to be a minimum requirement for departure. If they need topping up, they need it: if they don't, they don't. If maintenance missed it then It seems more like a crew who took their responsibilities seriously to me, I'd be disappointed if they hadn't checked & corrected the issue.

The issue is why they needed topped up. Maybe they had a leak. Not noticed by anyone. Captain thought he had full tanks. Came to use them during the flight and nothing left/very little in the tank.

Apologies, I thought you were reading something sinister into the request: the fact that they needed topping up may indicate there was a leak, perhaps, but the request to resolve it before departure would be normal, as far as I can tell. You'd need a 777 pilot for information as to whether it's monitored live or not, & the actions to take if it is, & that shows a leak.

You guys are missing the point - the standard maintenance checks were carried out pre take-off and were signed off without any defects being noted.

Then someone asked for the cockpit emergency oxygen tank to be topped off. No leak was reported.

That is highly unusual and extremely suspicious, given the suggested murder/suicide flight that followed - it is entirely consistent with a Captain ensuring that he had enough oxygen to fly the plane after depressurising the rest of the aircraft (and thereby incapacitating everyone else on it).

I suspect the logic is flawed: the maintenance checks & the cockpit checks are not looking for the same thing. I've been asked to accept equipment back into service which met the engineering spec, but wasn't good enough for what I needed it for. The engineering check may well be to establish the system is operating correctly, & the volume present meets the minimum, but it's the captains responsibility & accountability to ensure the aircraft is fit for the specific flight, & he'll have guidance & experience to know whether that's enough, or not. For example, it could be policy that services such as oxygen are dealt with at base, not at out stations, whenever possible - so topping up before departure, even though above minimum, makes commercial sense: engineering won't necessarily appreciate that.

Without knowing how often oxygen tanks need topping up generally, or what Malaysians minimum equipment for departure rules were at the time, we've no way of understanding whether it's an unusual request or not: it seems to be a reasonable enough for the service to be available without delaying the flight, or for anyone to make much of it on the ground before they departed. As I mentioned before, those actions are just as easily interpreted as the actions of a conscientious pilot making sure everything was as they needed it to be, for the safety of the flight.

[youngsyr]

MarkwG said:

youngsyr said:

MarkwG said:

sherman said:

MarkwG said:

youngsyr said:

MarkwG said:

See the answer Prawo Jadzy gave above. I don't know what happened, conjecture really gets us nowhere, & as yet, there's no way of knowing for sure.

One of the most convincing pieces of evidence I've seen is that the cockpit masks have a separate emergency oxygen tank to the rest of the plane.

These are kept full and are rarely used, so they are typically only topped up a couple times per year.

However someone asked for them to be topped up on that plane, very shortly before take off. It wasn't noted who requested it, just that it was done and that it was done AFTER the pre flight maintenance checks had already been signed off.

Highly unusual and one of the people who could have requested it was the captain.

Why would that be suspicious? The crew oxygen uses a different system to the cabin because the crew uses tanks, which need topping up, whereas the passenger system uses oxygen generators, which don't. The crew tanks will only need replenishment if they register low on testing, & on a long haul flight especially, are likely to be tested before each flight during the crews cockpit checks, as they're likely to be a minimum requirement for departure. If they need topping up, they need it: if they don't, they don't. If maintenance missed it then It seems more like a crew who took their responsibilities seriously to me, I'd be disappointed if they hadn't checked & corrected the issue.

The issue is why they needed topped up. Maybe they had a leak. Not noticed by anyone. Captain thought he had full tanks. Came to use them during the flight and nothing left/very little in the tank.

Apologies, I thought you were reading something sinister into the request: the fact that they needed topping up may indicate there was a leak, perhaps, but the request to resolve it before departure would be normal, as far as I can tell. You'd need a 777 pilot for information as to whether it's monitored live or not, & the actions to take if it is, & that shows a leak.

You guys are missing the point - the standard maintenance checks were carried out pre take-off and were signed off without any defects being noted.

Then someone asked for the cockpit emergency oxygen tank to be topped off. No leak was reported.

That is highly unusual and extremely suspicious, given the suggested murder/suicide flight that followed - it is entirely consistent with a Captain ensuring that he had enough oxygen to fly the plane after depressurising the rest of the aircraft (and thereby incapacitating everyone else on it).

I suspect the logic is flawed: the maintenance checks & the cockpit checks are not looking for the same thing. I've been asked to accept equipment back into service which met the engineering spec, but wasn't good enough for what I needed it for. The engineering check may well be to establish the system is operating correctly, & the volume present meets the minimum, but it's the captains responsibility & accountability to ensure the aircraft is fit for the specific flight, & he'll have guidance & experience to know whether that's enough, or not. For example, it could be policy that services such as oxygen are dealt with at base, not at out stations, whenever possible - so topping up before departure, even though above minimum, makes commercial sense: engineering won't necessarily appreciate that.

Without knowing how often oxygen tanks need topping up generally, or what Malaysians minimum equipment for departure rules were at the time, we've no way of understanding whether it's an unusual request or not: it seems to be a reasonable enough for the service to be available without delaying the flight, or for anyone to make much of it on the ground before they departed. As I mentioned before, those actions are just as easily interpreted as the actions of a conscientious pilot making sure everything was as they needed it to be, for the safety of the flight.

The programme states that that tank is usually topped up twice a year as needed. It was topped up immediately before that flight.

After a quick google, I think I saw that the previous time it was filled up was two months prior.

[48k]

gazapc said:

dvs_dave said:

See Helios Airways flight 552 for a real world example of that.

I've been slowly making my way through Pilot Mentor's youtube channel and just watched this one.

wow, what a crap way to go. The poor last man alive sat in the cockpit with a jet with no fuel and a cabin full of bodies.

The video in question https://youtu.be/pebpaM-Zua0?si=a30KJWWo1huiVKhA

Edited by gazapc on Sunday 17th December 23:14

TBF and without wishing to be morbid hypoxia is probably the best way to go. You'll feel giggly/happy / elated / high / drunk and gradually drift off to sleep totally oblivious to what is going on.

[MarkwG]

youngsyr said:

MarkwG said:

youngsyr said:

MarkwG said:

sherman said:

MarkwG said:

youngsyr said:

MarkwG said:

See the answer Prawo Jadzy gave above. I don't know what happened, conjecture really gets us nowhere, & as yet, there's no way of knowing for sure.

One of the most convincing pieces of evidence I've seen is that the cockpit masks have a separate emergency oxygen tank to the rest of the plane.

These are kept full and are rarely used, so they are typically only topped up a couple times per year.

However someone asked for them to be topped up on that plane, very shortly before take off. It wasn't noted who requested it, just that it was done and that it was done AFTER the pre flight maintenance checks had already been signed off.

Highly unusual and one of the people who could have requested it was the captain.

Why would that be suspicious? The crew oxygen uses a different system to the cabin because the crew uses tanks, which need topping up, whereas the passenger system uses oxygen generators, which don't. The crew tanks will only need replenishment if they register low on testing, & on a long haul flight especially, are likely to be tested before each flight during the crews cockpit checks, as they're likely to be a minimum requirement for departure. If they need topping up, they need it: if they don't, they don't. If maintenance missed it then It seems more like a crew who took their responsibilities seriously to me, I'd be disappointed if they hadn't checked & corrected the issue.

The issue is why they needed topped up. Maybe they had a leak. Not noticed by anyone. Captain thought he had full tanks. Came to use them during the flight and nothing left/very little in the tank.

Apologies, I thought you were reading something sinister into the request: the fact that they needed topping up may indicate there was a leak, perhaps, but the request to resolve it before departure would be normal, as far as I can tell. You'd need a 777 pilot for information as to whether it's monitored live or not, & the actions to take if it is, & that shows a leak.

You guys are missing the point - the standard maintenance checks were carried out pre take-off and were signed off without any defects being noted.

Then someone asked for the cockpit emergency oxygen tank to be topped off. No leak was reported.

That is highly unusual and extremely suspicious, given the suggested murder/suicide flight that followed - it is entirely consistent with a Captain ensuring that he had enough oxygen to fly the plane after depressurising the rest of the aircraft (and thereby incapacitating everyone else on it).

I suspect the logic is flawed: the maintenance checks & the cockpit checks are not looking for the same thing. I've been asked to accept equipment back into service which met the engineering spec, but wasn't good enough for what I needed it for. The engineering check may well be to establish the system is operating correctly, & the volume present meets the minimum, but it's the captains responsibility & accountability to ensure the aircraft is fit for the specific flight, & he'll have guidance & experience to know whether that's enough, or not. For example, it could be policy that services such as oxygen are dealt with at base, not at out stations, whenever possible - so topping up before departure, even though above minimum, makes commercial sense: engineering won't necessarily appreciate that.

Without knowing how often oxygen tanks need topping up generally, or what Malaysians minimum equipment for departure rules were at the time, we've no way of understanding whether it's an unusual request or not: it seems to be a reasonable enough for the service to be available without delaying the flight, or for anyone to make much of it on the ground before they departed. As I mentioned before, those actions are just as easily interpreted as the actions of a conscientious pilot making sure everything was as they needed it to be, for the safety of the flight.

The programme states that that tank is usually topped up twice a year as needed. It was topped up immediately before that flight.

After a quick google, I think I saw that the previous time it was filled up was two months prior.

That would suggest to me an incipient leek somewhere then. That's certainly happened before. It would also be interesting to ascertain how reliable their information is though, there's nothing regarding that in the official report, as far as I can tell.

[48k]

MarkwG said:

youngsyr said:

MarkwG said:

youngsyr said:

MarkwG said:

sherman said:

MarkwG said:

youngsyr said:

MarkwG said:

See the answer Prawo Jadzy gave above. I don't know what happened, conjecture really gets us nowhere, & as yet, there's no way of knowing for sure.

One of the most convincing pieces of evidence I've seen is that the cockpit masks have a separate emergency oxygen tank to the rest of the plane.

These are kept full and are rarely used, so they are typically only topped up a couple times per year.

However someone asked for them to be topped up on that plane, very shortly before take off. It wasn't noted who requested it, just that it was done and that it was done AFTER the pre flight maintenance checks had already been signed off.

Highly unusual and one of the people who could have requested it was the captain.

Why would that be suspicious? The crew oxygen uses a different system to the cabin because the crew uses tanks, which need topping up, whereas the passenger system uses oxygen generators, which don't. The crew tanks will only need replenishment if they register low on testing, & on a long haul flight especially, are likely to be tested before each flight during the crews cockpit checks, as they're likely to be a minimum requirement for departure. If they need topping up, they need it: if they don't, they don't. If maintenance missed it then It seems more like a crew who took their responsibilities seriously to me, I'd be disappointed if they hadn't checked & corrected the issue.

The issue is why they needed topped up. Maybe they had a leak. Not noticed by anyone. Captain thought he had full tanks. Came to use them during the flight and nothing left/very little in the tank.

Apologies, I thought you were reading something sinister into the request: the fact that they needed topping up may indicate there was a leak, perhaps, but the request to resolve it before departure would be normal, as far as I can tell. You'd need a 777 pilot for information as to whether it's monitored live or not, & the actions to take if it is, & that shows a leak.

You guys are missing the point - the standard maintenance checks were carried out pre take-off and were signed off without any defects being noted.

Then someone asked for the cockpit emergency oxygen tank to be topped off. No leak was reported.

That is highly unusual and extremely suspicious, given the suggested murder/suicide flight that followed - it is entirely consistent with a Captain ensuring that he had enough oxygen to fly the plane after depressurising the rest of the aircraft (and thereby incapacitating everyone else on it).

I suspect the logic is flawed: the maintenance checks & the cockpit checks are not looking for the same thing. I've been asked to accept equipment back into service which met the engineering spec, but wasn't good enough for what I needed it for. The engineering check may well be to establish the system is operating correctly, & the volume present meets the minimum, but it's the captains responsibility & accountability to ensure the aircraft is fit for the specific flight, & he'll have guidance & experience to know whether that's enough, or not. For example, it could be policy that services such as oxygen are dealt with at base, not at out stations, whenever possible - so topping up before departure, even though above minimum, makes commercial sense: engineering won't necessarily appreciate that.

Without knowing how often oxygen tanks need topping up generally, or what Malaysians minimum equipment for departure rules were at the time, we've no way of understanding whether it's an unusual request or not: it seems to be a reasonable enough for the service to be available without delaying the flight, or for anyone to make much of it on the ground before they departed. As I mentioned before, those actions are just as easily interpreted as the actions of a conscientious pilot making sure everything was as they needed it to be, for the safety of the flight.

The programme states that that tank is usually topped up twice a year as needed. It was topped up immediately before that flight.

After a quick google, I think I saw that the previous time it was filled up was two months prior.

That would suggest to me an incipient leek somewhere then. That's certainly happened before. It would also be interesting to ascertain how reliable their information is though, there's nothing regarding that in the official report, as far as I can tell.

It is covered in the official report on page 47:



What the Green Dot documentary draws attention to, that is not called out in the report, is that when the aircraft was on the ground in KL, the tech log was filled in pre flight with "NIL DEFECTS" in the defects section and "NIL NOTES" in the notes section and the notes section actually crossed through, then afterwards before departure there was an entry written over the top that the crew oxygen was replenished to 1800psi. There is no way of knowing who requested the oxygen top up or why, although you would have thought the LAME (engineer) would have been able to recall who asked them to top up the oxygen when interviewed as part of the investigation.

[MarkwG]

48k said:

MarkwG said:

youngsyr said:

MarkwG said:

youngsyr said:

MarkwG said:

sherman said:

MarkwG said:

youngsyr said:

MarkwG said:

See the answer Prawo Jadzy gave above. I don't know what happened, conjecture really gets us nowhere, & as yet, there's no way of knowing for sure.

One of the most convincing pieces of evidence I've seen is that the cockpit masks have a separate emergency oxygen tank to the rest of the plane.

These are kept full and are rarely used, so they are typically only topped up a couple times per year.

However someone asked for them to be topped up on that plane, very shortly before take off. It wasn't noted who requested it, just that it was done and that it was done AFTER the pre flight maintenance checks had already been signed off.

Highly unusual and one of the people who could have requested it was the captain.

Why would that be suspicious? The crew oxygen uses a different system to the cabin because the crew uses tanks, which need topping up, whereas the passenger system uses oxygen generators, which don't. The crew tanks will only need replenishment if they register low on testing, & on a long haul flight especially, are likely to be tested before each flight during the crews cockpit checks, as they're likely to be a minimum requirement for departure. If they need topping up, they need it: if they don't, they don't. If maintenance missed it then It seems more like a crew who took their responsibilities seriously to me, I'd be disappointed if they hadn't checked & corrected the issue.

The issue is why they needed topped up. Maybe they had a leak. Not noticed by anyone. Captain thought he had full tanks. Came to use them during the flight and nothing left/very little in the tank.

Apologies, I thought you were reading something sinister into the request: the fact that they needed topping up may indicate there was a leak, perhaps, but the request to resolve it before departure would be normal, as far as I can tell. You'd need a 777 pilot for information as to whether it's monitored live or not, & the actions to take if it is, & that shows a leak.

You guys are missing the point - the standard maintenance checks were carried out pre take-off and were signed off without any defects being noted.

Then someone asked for the cockpit emergency oxygen tank to be topped off. No leak was reported.

That is highly unusual and extremely suspicious, given the suggested murder/suicide flight that followed - it is entirely consistent with a Captain ensuring that he had enough oxygen to fly the plane after depressurising the rest of the aircraft (and thereby incapacitating everyone else on it).

I suspect the logic is flawed: the maintenance checks & the cockpit checks are not looking for the same thing. I've been asked to accept equipment back into service which met the engineering spec, but wasn't good enough for what I needed it for. The engineering check may well be to establish the system is operating correctly, & the volume present meets the minimum, but it's the captains responsibility & accountability to ensure the aircraft is fit for the specific flight, & he'll have guidance & experience to know whether that's enough, or not. For example, it could be policy that services such as oxygen are dealt with at base, not at out stations, whenever possible - so topping up before departure, even though above minimum, makes commercial sense: engineering won't necessarily appreciate that.

Without knowing how often oxygen tanks need topping up generally, or what Malaysians minimum equipment for departure rules were at the time, we've no way of understanding whether it's an unusual request or not: it seems to be a reasonable enough for the service to be available without delaying the flight, or for anyone to make much of it on the ground before they departed. As I mentioned before, those actions are just as easily interpreted as the actions of a conscientious pilot making sure everything was as they needed it to be, for the safety of the flight.

The programme states that that tank is usually topped up twice a year as needed. It was topped up immediately before that flight.

After a quick google, I think I saw that the previous time it was filled up was two months prior.

That would suggest to me an incipient leek somewhere then. That's certainly happened before. It would also be interesting to ascertain how reliable their information is though, there's nothing regarding that in the official report, as far as I can tell.

It is covered in the official report on page 47:



What the Green Dot documentary draws attention to, that is not called out in the report, is that when the aircraft was on the ground in KL, the tech log was filled in pre flight with "NIL DEFECTS" in the defects section and "NIL NOTES" in the notes section and the notes section actually crossed through, then afterwards before departure there was an entry written over the top that the crew oxygen was replenished to 1800psi. There is no way of knowing who requested the oxygen top up or why, although you would have thought the LAME (engineer) would have been able to recall who asked them to top up the oxygen when interviewed as part of the investigation.

Yes I read that too: what I meant is that the report doesn't seem to draw any conclusions on it: if anything, the statement that the airlines common practice is to service the system, even if above minimum, shows what happened wasn't a one off. The change in the notes makes perfect sense if there's nothing to hide; the engineer not recalling who requested, not unusual if it's common practice.

[youngsyr]

MarkwG said:

Yes I read that too: what I meant is that the report doesn't seem to draw any conclusions on it: if anything, the statement that the airlines common practice is to service the system, even if above minimum, shows what happened wasn't a one off. The change in the notes makes perfect sense if there's nothing to hide; the engineer not recalling who requested, not unusual if it's common practice.

One explanation is that it was just a routine part of the servicing.

Another is that the captain specifically requested it, knowing that he would be relying on the oxygen in that tank to carry out his plan.

There is no conclusive proof either way, but what would add weight either way is to understand how often this is done - Green Dot Aviation stated that it is twice per year. With the previous top up being performed two months earlier, this would indicate that it was out of routine.

[youngsyr]

And if you want to test the hypothesis that an extremely experienced pilot wanted to cover his tracks and make the plane disappear, you have to accept that there is unlikely to be a smoking gun - otherwise the pilot would know his plan was impossible.

It's therefore important to not take each piece of evidence in isolation, but to use them all to build up a picture and see if that picture is consistent with the theory.

The crew oxygen tank refill is consistent with that picture.

So is the manual switching off of the transponder, which as it was a rotary switch (on a dial) momentarily went through the intermediate "altitude only" setting, which transmitted briefly, before being switched to off.

The flight path being consistent with a plane attempting to avoid being detected as off its normal route is another piece of evidence that is consistent with the hypothesis.

Perhaps the most convincing part of the evidence for me is the automatic Immersat handshake attempts - it's highly conceivable that the captain didn't know about them and they are the only way we have any idea of where the plane went. It is entirely possible that in his mind, once he'd carried out his plan, there was no way to work out where the plane went down (and therefore attempt to retrieve the damning evidence contained within the black box).

None of this pieces of evidence are conclusive on their own, but taken together they eliminate other scenarios whilst supporting the murder/suicide one.

Edited by youngsyr on Tuesday 19th December 10:29

[Siko]

Totally agree with you - the magic of GDAs excellent video is he pieces the event together very well and when he stated the scenario was produced based on the facts, added to Occam's razor for the unknowns, he had me totally! I thought it was all very plausible and even my sceptical 777 captain mate thought it was excellent too.

He still thinks it was a third party gaining access to the cockpit from the cabin, as apparently shortly after the disappearance an external circuit breaker cupboard was fixed secure on my mate's fleet. He told me you could previously gain access to the cockpit through this cupboard by popping various cbs. I don't know how true that is, but he said it was the working theory at his company for a long time.