BA 787 Nosegear Collapse at Heathrow.

[aeropilot]

Tony1963 said:

I love the comments about CAD etc being at fault, because yeah, older aircraft had no stupid design issues at all, did they!

There's nothing wrong with CAD or CADD, its just a tool.

However, like any tool, its only as good as the people using it, and managing the whole design system.

There is also the issue with it that IT tech means that often now the various elements of your design team are not even in the same country let alone the same office, and while many industries have no problem with that, my experience after 40 years in Engineering is that it does create more problems than it supposedly solves. The only one it actually solves isn't an engineering one, but an accountancy one.

[croyde]

Interesting point about people being out of practice working on the aircraft thanks to Covid.

I'm in telly and did my first Outside Broadcast in a year and a half. A job I've done for 30 years but I had a hard time remembering what went where and going through menus.

Stuff I'd normally do without thinking.

[Munter]

aeropilot said:

Tony1963 said:

I love the comments about CAD etc being at fault, because yeah, older aircraft had no stupid design issues at all, did they!

There's nothing wrong with CAD or CADD, its just a tool.

However, like any tool, its only as good as the people using it, and managing the whole design system.

There is also the issue with it that IT tech means that often now the various elements of your design team are not even in the same country let alone the same office, and while many industries have no problem with that, my experience after 40 years in Engineering is that it does create more problems than it supposedly solves. The only one it actually solves isn't an engineering one, but an accountancy one.

New technology just allows us to screw up in new more complicated ways.

[Krikkit]

El stovey said:

If you looked at it, it’s not that easy a mistake to make tbh especially with all the warnings about it. The two holes are completely different diameters. People here are assuming that’s what caused the problem, (incorrect placement of the pin) we don’t actually know yet.

Being critical the pin hole for service should be a larger diameter than anything else in the same area, that way you can't mix the pin up with another hole!

[IanH755]

Tony1963 said:

Wow. Most patronising reply I’ve had!

Thanks

Tony1963 said:

I’ve worked on Hunters, Buccaneers, Tornado GR1 and F3, a few airliners, and now Apaches. And I’ll tell you this: the newer aircraft are just easier to work on for servicing and flight line ops. I’ve never been involved in the soul destroying building of aircraft.

And I've worked on 7 different types of military aircraft as well as working in civvy industry alongside both A/C and LRU design teams for a few years but this isn't meant to be a competition between us, it's just me giving others my experience of both working on the end product as well as spending a few years watching designers trying to build stuff (mainly using CAD) without much (if any) real-world feedback, just as long as it's hitting the specs is their main concern.

If I were in charge of an A/C design team I know I'd want as much end-user advice/experience as possible to assist the design team but that isn't in vogue any more, probably due to costs I suspect.

[Tony1963]

IanH755 said:

If I were in charge of an A/C design team I know I'd want as much end-user advice/experience as possible to assist the design team but that isn't in vogue any more, probably due to costs I suspect.

If I was in charge of an a/c design team, the poor thing would be twice the size and four times the weight. And 15 years behind schedule

[MikeGTi]

Tony1963 said:

If I was in charge of an a/c design team, the poor thing would be twice the size and four times the weight. And 15 years behind schedule

I think DE&S are calling you

[AW111]

croyde said:

Interesting point about people being out of practice working on the aircraft thanks to Covid.

I'm in telly and did my first Outside Broadcast in a year and a half. A job I've done for 30 years but I had a hard time remembering what went where and going through menus.

Stuff I'd normally do without thinking.

You work for GB news?

[JuniorD]

Krikkit said:

El stovey said:

If you looked at it, it’s not that easy a mistake to make tbh especially with all the warnings about it. The two holes are completely different diameters. People here are assuming that’s what caused the problem, (incorrect placement of the pin) we don’t actually know yet.

Being critical the pin hole for service should be a larger diameter than anything else in the same area, that way you can't mix the pin up with another hole!

Sounds a lot like another hole I can think of

[eccles]

IanH755 said:

Tony1963 said:

Wow. Most patronising reply I’ve had!

Thanks

Tony1963 said:

I’ve worked on Hunters, Buccaneers, Tornado GR1 and F3, a few airliners, and now Apaches. And I’ll tell you this: the newer aircraft are just easier to work on for servicing and flight line ops. I’ve never been involved in the soul destroying building of aircraft.

And I've worked on 7 different types of military aircraft as well as working in civvy industry alongside both A/C and LRU design teams for a few years but this isn't meant to be a competition between us, it's just me giving others my experience of both working on the end product as well as spending a few years watching designers trying to build stuff (mainly using CAD) without much (if any) real-world feedback, just as long as it's hitting the specs is their main concern.

If I were in charge of an A/C design team I know I'd want as much end-user advice/experience as possible to assist the design team but that isn't in vogue any more, probably due to costs I suspect.

Where I used to work they had engineering apprentices every year and they'd offer places to graduate engineers.
The company apprentices spent the first two years on the shop floor and worked in most of the Hangars on different types before going to the drawing office and day release to college.

The guys who'd been on the shop floor invariably turned out better repairs and mods than the straight graduates as they had that little bit of experience trying to implement the repairs being issued.

[tonyvid]

MikeGTi said:

Tony1963 said:

If I was in charge of an a/c design team, the poor thing would be twice the size and four times the weight. And 15 years behind schedule

I think DE&S are calling you

[Tony1963]

Pardon?

[Pinkie15]

See the AAIB released a "special Bulletin" on this one last week; https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/60e...


As speculated earlier, NLG lock pin put in the wrong hole. The wrong hole being the one that's got the Airworthiness Directive that's meant to have an insert put in it to stop this event happening (which doesn't have to be fulfilled until Jan 2023)

As the engineer who was about to cycle the landing gear asked 3 times if the pins were in place guess they were aware/cautious of potential problems (and consequences)

Damage to lower fuselage, the NLG doors, engine nacelles/cowlings and one cabin door (ripped off of it's hinges against stairway used to get on board).

Plane was being loaded for a cargo flight.

[aeropilot]

Pinkie15 said:

See the AAIB released a "special Bulletin" on this one last week; https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/60e...


As speculated earlier, NLG lock pin put in the wrong hole. The wrong hole being the one that's got the Airworthiness Directive that's meant to have an insert put in it to stop this event happening (which doesn't have to be fulfilled until Jan 2023)

As the engineer who was about to cycle the landing gear asked 3 times if the pins were in place guess they were aware/cautious of potential problems (and consequences)

From the report:

"As [Mechanic 1] was not tall enough to reach the NLG locking pin hole without steps, he pointed to the location of the hole and [Mechanic 2] fitted the NLG locking pin."

[anonymous-user]

This is (one of) the crucial events in the lead up to the collapse.

“As Mech 1 was not tall enough to reach the NLG locking pin hole without steps, he pointed to the location of the hole and Mech 2 fitted the NLG locking pin”

The engineer must be very small, it’s not that high up.

Poor design
People all lacking currency
Engineer too small
Other engineer getting it wrong
Engineer not checking the other engineer had done it properly
Plus some others.

[hidetheelephants]

What a surprise, human factors caused an accident.

[Trevatanus]

El stovey said:

This is (one of) the crucial events in the lead up to the collapse.

“As Mech 1 was not tall enough to reach the NLG locking pin hole without steps, he pointed to the location of the hole and Mech 2 fitted the NLG locking pin”

The engineer must be very small, it’s not that high up.

Poor design
People all lacking currency
Engineer too small
Other engineer getting it wrong
Engineer not checking the other engineer had done it properly
Plus some others.

Classic Swiss Cheese effect.

[MB140]

aeropilot said:

surveyor said:

That looks like a very easy mistake to make..

Its stupid design.
Another Boeing clanger, and systemic of modern electronic remote design 'managed' by people that have no hands-on experience.

I see similar day in day out these days in my job compared to 25+ years ago.

Indeed I’ve spent 25 years in the RAF as an aircraft engineer. It amazes me at the level of design stupidity around aircraft sometimes.

What’s worse in a culture of learn from mistakes made in the aviation industry. Usually at more than a financial expense we seem to be forgetting about the lessons hard learn as designers chase the bottom line to save a few pence.

This one just beggars belief.

[aeropilot]

MB140 said:

Usually at more than a financial expense we seem to be forgetting about the lessons hard learn as designers chase the bottom line to save a few pence.

I don't know of any designer that chases the bottom line......initially.

What usually happens is a project manager type along with the bean counters, review the design and then instruct the designers to find ways of saving a few pence.........(which usually costs more in design time, than the saving is, but the bean counters justify their salary but declaring a saving )

[MB140]

aeropilot said:

I don't know of any designer that chases the bottom line......initially.

What usually happens is a project manager type along with the bean counters, review the design and then instruct the designers to find ways of saving a few pence.........(which usually costs more in design time, than the saving is, but the bean counters justify their salary but declaring a saving )

Apologies aeropilot. You’re 100% correct. The designer designs the optimal solution and is then told by an account. Brilliant make it cheaper.

Fools like me then blame the designer not considering the constraints on the designer.


We’re just the muppets who are out on the line trying to wire lock a load of bolts in the blind one handed in a torture position when a simple access panel means a job that should take 30 mins ends up taking a day.

(Tornado GR4 laser ranger? springs to mind not that I still have nightmares from 1997/8 Pre haddan-cave and the MAA it was amazing the number that weren’t actually wire locked. ) Once one came of in flight in goose it resulted in fleet checks. Not that I had about a dozen aircraft to do as part of a UTI.