Ukrainian Air Force
Discussion
FourWheelDrift said:
LotusOmega375D said:
So which RAF warplanes would Liz Truss send to the Ukrainian Air Force? They don’t have the personnel, training, or ground support for any of our types do they, not that we have all that many to hand over anyway!
UAVs, they don't need training as the "pilot" can be anywhere.Paint some Ukrainian flags on the side and nobody else but the operators would know who was actually operating it from where.
I mean if a highly skilled team of RAF or US operators happened to be in the control room while some Ukrainians were sat in the corner playing cards and a Ukrainian drone happened to strike a load of Russian military who would know.
Sort of negates your need to train Ukrainian operators…………… And training the Ukrainians takes money and in this case More importantly time (which the Ukrainians don’t have).
Interesting article on the thought processes needed to fly ex-soviet Mig29's being so different from those needed to fly western F-16's that no Polish pilots ever transfer between the two, and when they get F35's it's unlikely that they'll retrain Mig-29 pilots to fly them. Comes across as a bit condescending but an interesting point of view when people are talking about providing new aircraft to Ukraine. I'd just assumed training on a new aircraft type was all about where the buttons were and what the performance limits are, but it appears to be a lot more complicated than that.
https://www.businessinsider.com/learning-to-fly-f3...
https://www.businessinsider.com/learning-to-fly-f3...
RizzoTheRat said:
Interesting article on the thought processes needed to fly ex-soviet Mig29's being so different from those needed to fly western F-16's that no Polish pilots ever transfer between the two, and when they get F35's it's unlikely that they'll retrain Mig-29 pilots to fly them. Comes across as a bit condescending but an interesting point of view when people are talking about providing new aircraft to Ukraine. I'd just assumed training on a new aircraft type was all about where the buttons were and what the performance limits are, but it appears to be a lot more complicated than that.
https://www.businessinsider.com/learning-to-fly-f3...
The F-35 is supposed to be a doddle to fly (so they keep trying to tell people) so err...........someone is lying?https://www.businessinsider.com/learning-to-fly-f3...
RizzoTheRat said:
I think that's the main point, it's a completely different skill set, more akin to a back seater than a front seater in many respects. Western 4th generation aircraft already include a degree of that, I guess maybe the Russian/Soviet ones didn't?
While thats true, they've converted pilots from the 29 to the F-16 (and Germany did the same to the Eurofighter) without any issues, so those pilots could make the transition to the F-35, and retrain the current MiG pilots to fly the F-16's which they've already done, or take new pilots straight through to the F-35, which they'll be doing eventually, unless they are also now going to keep the F-16's as well as the F-35's to bolster their defense in light of Russia's actions.RizzoTheRat said:
Interesting article on the thought processes needed to fly ex-soviet Mig29's being so different from those needed to fly western F-16's that no Polish pilots ever transfer between the two, and when they get F35's it's unlikely that they'll retrain Mig-29 pilots to fly them. Comes across as a bit condescending but an interesting point of view when people are talking about providing new aircraft to Ukraine. I'd just assumed training on a new aircraft type was all about where the buttons were and what the performance limits are, but it appears to be a lot more complicated than that.
https://www.businessinsider.com/learning-to-fly-f3...
Sounds like patronising cobblers; moving from a steam-powered cockpit to one with screens and a helmet-mounted display will be a steep learning curve and training new entrants is preferable unless you're scrapping the steam-powered aircraft overnight, but really? There is a wash-out rate of fast jet training courses, so it would be inevitable there will be a wash-out rate for converting where there is a large difference between planes.https://www.businessinsider.com/learning-to-fly-f3...
aeropilot said:
RizzoTheRat said:
Interesting article on the thought processes needed to fly ex-soviet Mig29's being so different from those needed to fly western F-16's that no Polish pilots ever transfer between the two, and when they get F35's it's unlikely that they'll retrain Mig-29 pilots to fly them. Comes across as a bit condescending but an interesting point of view when people are talking about providing new aircraft to Ukraine. I'd just assumed training on a new aircraft type was all about where the buttons were and what the performance limits are, but it appears to be a lot more complicated than that.
https://www.businessinsider.com/learning-to-fly-f3...
The F-35 is supposed to be a doddle to fly (so they keep trying to tell people) so err...........someone is lying?https://www.businessinsider.com/learning-to-fly-f3...
The idea being that we've made the F35 so easy to fly so that the pilot can spend 90% of the flight thinking about tactics and using the mission systems rather than on the act of flying.
So really that business insider article should have been less about the difficulty of "flying" and more about the difficulty in understanding how to operate something so fundamentally advanced in comparison, like showing a 1970's software programmer a 2020 PC and saying "but you're a programmer, crack on!" as an example.
yellowjack said:
But I think the RAF/RN Hawk fleet was hugely reduced in size as retirement of the type approached, so how many serviceable airframes could we muster to transfer over? Obviously we (as a government/nation) wouldn't prioritise spares harvesting to service the needs of the RAFAT over rendering assistance to the Ukrainians in their hour of need, would we?
I think they had about 75 of them, but how many were flyable is another matter, as I believe spares were getting an issue, and certainley some were life ex'd IIRC, which is why those 75 are being RTP to keep the Reds flying until 2030!! The 20-25 lowest FI and hours of all the T1's have been selected as the Reds fleets and attrition replacements. That's why a few of the black ones are going through the paint booths now and getting a coat of shiny red paint.
The Hawk is ancient and has limited ECM capabilities. It would be an absolute death trap to fly against a remotely competent air defence system. You wouldn't know who was firing at you or have anything you could do about it.I think they had about 75 of them, but how many were flyable is another matter, as I believe spares were getting an issue, and certainley some were life ex'd IIRC, which is why those 75 are being RTP to keep the Reds flying until 2030!! The 20-25 lowest FI and hours of all the T1's have been selected as the Reds fleets and attrition replacements. That's why a few of the black ones are going through the paint booths now and getting a coat of shiny red paint.
It isn't to the best of my knowledge linked to any combat data information sharing network. Again you are going to be murdered by someone who is connected. Likewise I doubt it has three capability to receive targeting information in flight.
Finally what mission would the Hawk be used for. It doesn't have precision ground attack munitions. For air to air it is basically target practice for a front line fighter.
Edited by Talksteer on Thursday 28th April 15:46
aeropilot said:
The F-35 is supposed to be a doddle to fly (so they keep trying to tell people) so err...........someone is lying?
They must have fixed the problems with the plane trying to kill the pilots then.https://www.defensenews.com/air/2021/08/02/house-p...
Did anyone see that the Germans are supplying their IRIS-T missile system? I’m not familiar with it, but it seems to be an impressive jack-of-all trades weapon. Air-to-air, air-to-surface and surface-to-air, which is the version that the Ukrainians will be getting.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IRIS-T
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IRIS-T
LotusOmega375D said:
Did anyone see that the Germans are supplying their IRIS-T missile system? I’m not familiar with it, but it seems to be an impressive jack-of-all trades weapon. Air-to-air, air-to-surface and surface-to-air, which is the version that the Ukrainians will be getting.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IRIS-T
Did they say what decade they will be supplying it? They have been "supplying" lots of things that have yet to make it out of Germany.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IRIS-T
Flooble said:
LotusOmega375D said:
Did anyone see that the Germans are supplying their IRIS-T missile system? I’m not familiar with it, but it seems to be an impressive jack-of-all trades weapon. Air-to-air, air-to-surface and surface-to-air, which is the version that the Ukrainians will be getting.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IRIS-T
Did they say what decade they will be supplying it? They have been "supplying" lots of things that have yet to make it out of Germany.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IRIS-T
Saw this posted elsewhere, which is very apt.
So with the Ukrainian military making significant advances in the East, what is the situation in the air nowadays? Are there battlefield strikes by aircraft from either side, or are they keeping out if it? There’s a story here about HARM missiles possibly being fitted to the remaining Ukrainian MIG-29 and Su-27 fleet.
https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/ukraines-su-...
https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/ukraines-su-...
LotusOmega375D said:
So with the Ukrainian military making significant advances in the East, what is the situation in the air nowadays? Are there battlefield strikes by aircraft from either side, or are they keeping out if it? There’s a story here about HARM missiles possibly being fitted to the remaining Ukrainian MIG-29 and Su-27 fleet.
https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/ukraines-su-...
Yes, the HARM missile story surfaced a few weeks ago. It seems this was as a result of Raytheon in the USA, doing all the integration work some years back when the USAF Aggressor units had acquired MiG-29's and Su-27's and updates and integration packs had been developed to integrate US kit into these Russian aircraft types, so it only took a few months extra work for this stuff to de dusted off and bits made and sent over to Ukraine, rather than the years of development that it would be normally expected to take.https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/ukraines-su-...
The UKrAF are using its limited air assets carefully where needed, and the RuAF are very wary of the UKr surface to air capability so are clearly not venturing over the front lines too much. I saw they lost another Su-30 the other day, although the recent cruise missile strike the other day was likely air launched from Backfire or Bear's from well within Russian airspace where they are out of range of UKr forces.
Must have been a bit of luck involved there, assuming the Russians didn't do anything stupid like come around a second time, presumably quite low.
There was a French Jaguar pilot who took an AK-47 round to the helmet at the start of the Gulf War, sometimes all the money and technology in the world can only get you so far.
There was a French Jaguar pilot who took an AK-47 round to the helmet at the start of the Gulf War, sometimes all the money and technology in the world can only get you so far.
coetzeeh said:
swine of a weapon when you are at he receiving end, more so the ZSU 23 - 4.
Dunno how many ZSU 23-4's Ukraine have, but the Germans sent them several Flakpanzer Gepard's (radar guided twin 35mm cannons), which some in the press slagged them off for saying anti aircraft guns were outdated and useless these days....then the Ukrainans shoot down a modern fighter with manually aimed anti aircraft guncoetzeeh said:
LotusOmega375D said:
swine of a weapon when you are at he receiving end, more so the ZSU 23 - 4.Its likely why you are pretty much only seeing the RuF using the Frogfoot for AG missions, other than stand-off.
I wonder if the 3 x Su-24's downed the other day were Navy recce versions from Crimea trying to see where the UkR forces were now, which might mean they have not many UAV's left...and/or their satellite imagery isn't up to much??
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