Ukrainian Air Force

[768]

coetzeeh said:

swine of a weapon when you are at he receiving end, more so the ZSU 23 - 4.

[LotusOmega375D]

Bit of video and interview with UAF MiG29 pilot here.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/world-europe-6346529...

[Richard-G]

LotusOmega375D said:

Bit of video and interview with UAF MiG29 pilot here.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/world-europe-6346529...

thanks for the link, seems like the type of guy that wouldnt take long to adapt to the HOTAS of an f16!

[IanH755]

Richard-G said:

LotusOmega375D said:

Bit of video and interview with UAF MiG29 pilot here.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/world-europe-6346529...

thanks for the link, seems like the type of guy that wouldnt take long to adapt to the HOTAS of an f16!

If all it took was "just" pilots adapting to HOTAS to be able to operationally use an F-16 it'd be a far simpler issue to solve for the West but the physical act of flying is only the simplest issue amongst a whole heap of technological issues converting even experienced Pilots into flying the F-16.

[768]

LotusOmega375D said:

Bit of video and interview with UAF MiG29 pilot here.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/world-europe-6346529...

And an ex-RAF Jaguar pilot. Probably a theatre the Jaguar was expected to see more action in.

[LotusOmega375D]

So now that even Germany is sending/authorising Leopard 2 tanks to Ukraine, why not give them the MiG-29s that some European countries offered last year. Or do they only want F-16s now?

[blueST]

Is lack of aircraft a problem? I get the feeling they can't suppress Russian air defences, SEAD I think they call it. enough to operate much even if they had. Would having F16s change that. I guess they'd need some dedicated SEAD type squadrons with specialised aircraft and weapons?

[aeropilot]

blueST said:

Is lack of aircraft a problem? I get the feeling they can't suppress Russian air defences, SEAD I think they call it. enough to operate much even if they had. Would having F16s change that. I guess they'd need some dedicated SEAD type squadrons with specialised aircraft and weapons?

Its pretty much what they've been using their Mig-29's for this past 6 months, as they integrated the US HARM missiles onto their Mig's and have been conducting SEAD missions pretty as the only air strike missions to try and take out the Russian air defense batteries.

They are loosing the odd MIG 29 though, and they must be getting close to needing more aircraft. The dozen or so MIG29's offered would be better than nothing though. Not sure how many of their Su-27's they have left in service now, as they did loose a number of those in the early days.

I think the surplus F-16's that are knocking around in Europe and the USA has to be the better option, other than training up the crews both air and ground, just as the Leopards are the better option for the same reason, than M1's or Chally's which will only create bigger problems in terms of logistics and support...not that seems to have been understood by the shameful German politicians only interested in protecting the big fat brown envelopes popped through their letterboxes by Pootin's bank in recent decades.

[RizzoTheRat]

I think the west is generally reluctant to supply more offensive systems that could be used to attack across the border too.

[GliderRider]

blueST said:

Is lack of aircraft a problem? I get the feeling they can't suppress Russian air defences, SEAD I think they call it. enough to operate much even if they had. Would having F16s change that. I guess they'd need some dedicated SEAD type squadrons with specialised aircraft and weapons?

Would the resources required to keep MiG-29s or F-16s in the air be justified in comparison to the other potential uses of that manpower? The thing that has been astounding in this war has been the rate of losses of combat aircraft, largely due to ground launched missiles. The only aircraft that operate with impunity are the Russian cruise missile launchers (I'm guessing Tu-22M, Tu-95MS, Tu-160) as they never get in range of Ukrainian air defence.
Every aircraft requires a massive amount of logistical support, not only to maintain the aeroplane and keep it supplied with armament and fuel, but to maintain and defend the airfield from which it operates. Putting that same effort into bringing more drones and ground launched missiles to combat areas may be more cost effective.

[LotusOmega375D]

At least with the MiG-29s, they would just be replacing like with like, so they could be put into active service very quickly. I assume Russia is doing its best to replace the planes they have lost. Why is it necessary to make a big public announcement? Just let the Ukrainians come and get them on the quiet.

[RizzoTheRat]

LotusOmega375D said:

At least with the MiG-29s, they would just be replacing like with like, so they could be put into active service very quickly.

Not necessarily, most have likely been upgraded significantly from the original soviet spec. Eg Poland upgraded the avionics, radar, etc on theirs.

[aeropilot]

RizzoTheRat said:

LotusOmega375D said:

At least with the MiG-29s, they would just be replacing like with like, so they could be put into active service very quickly.

Not necessarily, most have likely been upgraded significantly from the original soviet spec. Eg Poland upgraded the avionics, radar, etc on theirs.

The Ukranians have upgraded theirs a lot as well during the past 5+ years. You can't just bolt on US HARM missiles and expect them to work.

[IanH755]

RizzoTheRat said:

LotusOmega375D said:

At least with the MiG-29s, they would just be replacing like with like, so they could be put into active service very quickly.

Not necessarily, most have likely been upgraded significantly from the original soviet spec. Eg Poland upgraded the avionics, radar, etc on theirs.

Thats the part most people don't quite recognise, just because the name is the same doesn't mean that internally it's the same.

There's some huge differences between the various MiG-29's each country has and each difference needs additional training time for pilots/mechanics, new parts, repair facilities etc which is rarely taken into account with the general "just give them MiG's" requests.

[RizzoTheRat]

aeropilot said:

The Ukranians have upgraded theirs a lot as well during the past 5+ years. You can't just bolt on US HARM missiles and expect them to work.

True, but presumably different upgrades to those done by Poland or Slovakia.

[aeropilot]

RizzoTheRat said:

aeropilot said:

The Ukranians have upgraded theirs a lot as well during the past 5+ years. You can't just bolt on US HARM missiles and expect them to work.

True, but presumably different upgrades to those done by Poland or Slovakia.

Almost certainley, but they might have been given a lot of help from that direction as UKR started looking ever westwards in the past decade or so, so maybe not too far apart?

[aeropilot]

Just seen supposedly accurate info that Poland have already given UKR some of their MIG-29's last year.........or rather spare parts for MIG-29's.....but that happened to be all wrapped up inside several MIG-29 fuselages

Given that the only way they were likely to get into Ukraine was being flown, rather than as a complete a/c being road transported (how easy do the wings come off a MIG29?) its unlikely they were unflyable 'christmas tree' examples for 'spares recovery'...?

[LotusOmega375D]

Just been watching the news. Lots of talk about the UK sending fighter jets to Ukraine. Can’t see that myself. Now that the Tornadoes are all gone, that realistically only leaves Typhoons. Could the UAF operate and fly them? Surely that’s a long term bet at best? I say give them all the bloody MiG29s in Europe now, otherwise there might not be a Ukraine left to support.

[Simpo Two]

LotusOmega375D said:

Just been watching the news. Lots of talk about the UK sending fighter jets to Ukraine. Can’t see that myself. Now that the Tornadoes are all gone, that realistically only leaves Typhoons. Could the UAF operate and fly them? Surely that’s a long term bet at best? I say give them all the bloody MiG29s in Europe now, otherwise there might not be a Ukraine left to support.

I think it's all too little too late - it will just prolong the war. The problem is that if one country can only survive when propped up by another, there's no endgame. Look at Afghanistan - Biden pulled out and in a fortnight it was all back to how it would have been if we'd never got involved. Don't get into a position without knowing how to get out.

[aeropilot]

LotusOmega375D said:

Just been watching the news. Lots of talk about the UK sending fighter jets to Ukraine. Can’t see that myself. Now that the Tornadoes are all gone, that realistically only leaves Typhoons.

The 30 x Tranche 1 Typhoons that are supposed to be going to be retired early, after the announcement made in Sept 2021....(even though they would have less than 50% of their life used and BAe have since said could be upgraded to latest Tranche levels) are the only thing we have spare, and realistically, we don't have those spare.

I thought the French were going to give them the recently retired Mirage 2000's that were all retired from French AF use late last year and are in storage.
Probably quicker conversion to those from Mig-29's, being similar era, tech etc.

They need something soon, as said, time is running out as Russia are starting to learn by their mistakes and sort out their own mess....
I still think the effectiveness of S-300/S-400 SAM systems used by Ukraine and RF are limiting use of aviation assets by both sides over the front lines....