Ukrainian Air Force
Discussion
havoc said:
coanda said:
I think it is more likely that Mig-29s over the battlefield are Ukr. rather than Russian from what I have seen so far.
Where the hell is the Russian Air Force? With many more airframes and much newer equipment???I think the long Twitter analysis linked yesterday morning has it right - Putin is used to quick-and-easy wins which can be dressed up as 'police actions' or 'limited operations' or 'rescue missions' (sic). So that's how they went into this...lot of second-line men and materiel on the ground to ensure numerical superiority, but little combined-arms actions as they didn't want it to look like a full-scale invasion.
It could be that the tactical aviation commanders are not really bought into this fight so are doing the minimum required not to get shot. It could also be that there is a shortage of fuel, munitions and spares for dispersed tactical aviation assets so their aircraft are being saved for larger events such as the heliborne assaults. Either way, let's hope it continues.
It seems to me that the low impact walk over has clearly failed and we're now in the process of seeing the high impact build up. This was the easy bit, it's about to get a lot worse in Ukraine.
From the Daily Express today:
"On Monday, Ukraine said that the bloc was sending 70 fighter planes, including 28 MiG-29s from Poland, 12 from Slovakia and 16 from Bulgaria, as well as 14 Su-25s from Bulgaria.
But Bulgarian Prime Minister Kiril Petkov denied such claims and Poland refused to confirm them"
"On Monday, Ukraine said that the bloc was sending 70 fighter planes, including 28 MiG-29s from Poland, 12 from Slovakia and 16 from Bulgaria, as well as 14 Su-25s from Bulgaria.
But Bulgarian Prime Minister Kiril Petkov denied such claims and Poland refused to confirm them"
I am starting to strongly suspect that the much vaunted Russian military is actually a bit rubbish.
Airforce. Yes they have SU-57 but are they deployable and interoperable with ground forces?
Syria saw heavy use of the SU-35, which they are using in Ukraine as well but the suspicion is that SU-57 is not a real match for the F-22. In fact the whole SU-57 program smacks of propaganda.
Remember the fear of the Mig-25 in the West that set the cat among the pigeons until it was discovered it was an unstable & overweight pig.
Army. Lots and lots of older equipment.
The equivalent of the British army retaining all it’s Cheiftan & Challenger 1.
Yes they have a handful of more modern tanks but where are they? Or as with SU-57 are they so expensive they can’t be risked or un reliable tech keeping them off the battlefield.
Surface Navy. Again lots & lots of legacy kit to fill pages of Janes, but as their aircraft carrier proves the bulk of this is padding as opposed to assets.
Their new-build program is beset with issues & the fact the Admiral Grigorovich class Corvettes use Ukrainian turbines & German diesel engines I expect this to falter.
Submarines. As above. They were very very good. Lavk of investment has left the submarine fleet reduced in numbers & limited in updates.
In the 1990’s a Soviet Submariner could feel very confident in their ability to detect before being detected.
Now I think they aren’t so happy.
It pays to over estimate your enemy and in a prolonged war the Russian military would be a serious opponent just because of the amount of attrition it could withstand.
However the reality is the smaller NATO armies have better kit & better training and essentially are elite forces, there is no low level rank & file.
For the job NATO has, defensive and to hold the line, they are correctly formed (if a little under strength).
Ukraine has been trying to get it’s forces to NATO levels of training & interoperability. And it shows.
Russia underestimated it’s enemy and expected the sheer volume of 1970’s legacy kit & soft skin vehicles to intimidate the enemy into submission. And it shows.
Airforce. Yes they have SU-57 but are they deployable and interoperable with ground forces?
Syria saw heavy use of the SU-35, which they are using in Ukraine as well but the suspicion is that SU-57 is not a real match for the F-22. In fact the whole SU-57 program smacks of propaganda.
Remember the fear of the Mig-25 in the West that set the cat among the pigeons until it was discovered it was an unstable & overweight pig.
Army. Lots and lots of older equipment.
The equivalent of the British army retaining all it’s Cheiftan & Challenger 1.
Yes they have a handful of more modern tanks but where are they? Or as with SU-57 are they so expensive they can’t be risked or un reliable tech keeping them off the battlefield.
Surface Navy. Again lots & lots of legacy kit to fill pages of Janes, but as their aircraft carrier proves the bulk of this is padding as opposed to assets.
Their new-build program is beset with issues & the fact the Admiral Grigorovich class Corvettes use Ukrainian turbines & German diesel engines I expect this to falter.
Submarines. As above. They were very very good. Lavk of investment has left the submarine fleet reduced in numbers & limited in updates.
In the 1990’s a Soviet Submariner could feel very confident in their ability to detect before being detected.
Now I think they aren’t so happy.
It pays to over estimate your enemy and in a prolonged war the Russian military would be a serious opponent just because of the amount of attrition it could withstand.
However the reality is the smaller NATO armies have better kit & better training and essentially are elite forces, there is no low level rank & file.
For the job NATO has, defensive and to hold the line, they are correctly formed (if a little under strength).
Ukraine has been trying to get it’s forces to NATO levels of training & interoperability. And it shows.
Russia underestimated it’s enemy and expected the sheer volume of 1970’s legacy kit & soft skin vehicles to intimidate the enemy into submission. And it shows.
I think some of these comments might be better off here: https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&...
Riley Blue said:
I think some of these comments might be better off here: https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&...
Yes quite right.I started responded about the fact Russia hadn’t achieved air superiority and why, but the fact the Russian airforce fits into a larger pattern led me off topic.
From today's Independent:
"In a statement on Facebook, the Air Force Command of Ukraine’s armed forces said the country will get 16 MiG-29 and 14 Su-25 planes from Bulgaria, 28 Mig-29 planes from Poland and another 12 MiG-29 jets from Slovakia.
A Ukrainian government official told Politico magazine that Ukrainian pilots had reached Poland to begin the process of taking control of the planes.
Late on Sunday, EU foreign affairs chief Josep Borrell had said in a statement that the planes would be transferred to the Ukrainian air force alongside deliveries of smaller items such as shoulder-fired anti-tank and anti-aircraft missiles for the Ukrainian army."
"In a statement on Facebook, the Air Force Command of Ukraine’s armed forces said the country will get 16 MiG-29 and 14 Su-25 planes from Bulgaria, 28 Mig-29 planes from Poland and another 12 MiG-29 jets from Slovakia.
A Ukrainian government official told Politico magazine that Ukrainian pilots had reached Poland to begin the process of taking control of the planes.
Late on Sunday, EU foreign affairs chief Josep Borrell had said in a statement that the planes would be transferred to the Ukrainian air force alongside deliveries of smaller items such as shoulder-fired anti-tank and anti-aircraft missiles for the Ukrainian army."
Jake899 said:
If true, Ukraine will be the only European nation flying Russian/Soviet era jets, with the exception of a few countries such as Croatia and Romania who are flying the even older MiG-21.
Romania won't be flying their MiG-21's for much longer, as 3 months ago, they have bought the just recently retired Norwegian F-16's to replace the last 20 or so MiG-21 they had left in service.Doesn't look like Ukraine will be getting those MiG's after all......
https://www.stripes.com/theaters/europe/2022-03-01...
Slovak Defense spokesman also confirmed to a journalist that they are not releasing their jets to Ukraine.
https://www.stripes.com/theaters/europe/2022-03-01...
Slovak Defense spokesman also confirmed to a journalist that they are not releasing their jets to Ukraine.
It’s actually a very 20th century conflict isn’t it? WW2 tactics, freezing weather, Soviet hardware, huge convoys, overwhelming numbers of boots on ground, indiscriminate bombing, thousands of refugees and a few war crimes mixed in.
So much for all the recent Western investment in down-sizing their military and replacing it with high tech gizmos and computer geeks sat at air-conditioned desks.
So much for all the recent Western investment in down-sizing their military and replacing it with high tech gizmos and computer geeks sat at air-conditioned desks.
Trevatanus said:
Photo is a bit "noisy", but this is an SU27 from the Ukranian Air Force at RIAT in 2018, flown by Colonel Oleksandr Oksanchenko who was sadly shot down by Russian forces on Friday
R.I.P. Colonel.
SU27 by Jim Pritchard, on Flickr
Yes, he was nothing short of exceptional to watch, a great loss for all.R.I.P. Colonel.
SU27 by Jim Pritchard, on Flickr
aeropilot said:
Doesn't look like Ukraine will be getting those MiG's after all......
https://www.stripes.com/theaters/europe/2022-03-01...
Slovak Defense spokesman also confirmed to a journalist that they are not releasing their jets to Ukraine.
I don't believe this article says anything actually. Of course they won't fly aircraft in the roundels of a third country into a warzone. What they will do is invite Ukrainian pilots over, sign the aircraft over to Ukraine and change the insignias, and then the Ukrainian planes and pilots will fly back to Ukrainian airspace.https://www.stripes.com/theaters/europe/2022-03-01...
Slovak Defense spokesman also confirmed to a journalist that they are not releasing their jets to Ukraine.
With the likelihood of pressure increasing on the airspace, I wonder how a NATO country would feel about allowing a squadron or two of Ukrainian fighters to be based on their soil, letting the Ukraine AF safely take off in protected airspace and then go in to Ukraine on the hunt. Poland I'm looking at you.
Jake899 said:
With the likelihood of pressure increasing on the airspace, I wonder how a NATO country would feel about allowing a squadron or two of Ukrainian fighters to be based on their soil, letting the Ukraine AF safely take off in protected airspace and then go in to Ukraine on the hunt. Poland I'm looking at you.
While NATO maintains they are staying out, that is not going to happen. It would make that country a legitimate target & bring NATO fully into the warThe article is based on a what was reported in a NATO press conference yesterday. It seems pretty certain that those earmarked aircraft won’t end up being used in Ukraine.
https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/opinions_192582...
If true, it seems a bit hypocritical and spineless. NATO is vociferous about supplying thousands of anti-tank missiles and other land based weapons to destroy Russian tanks and kill Russian soldiers, but they won’t send over a few dozen aircraft to do likewise and help protect Ukrainian troops and civilians.
https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/opinions_192582...
If true, it seems a bit hypocritical and spineless. NATO is vociferous about supplying thousands of anti-tank missiles and other land based weapons to destroy Russian tanks and kill Russian soldiers, but they won’t send over a few dozen aircraft to do likewise and help protect Ukrainian troops and civilians.
LotusOmega375D said:
The article is based on a what was reported in a NATO press conference yesterday. It seems pretty certain that those earmarked aircraft won’t end up being used in Ukraine.
https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/opinions_192582...
If true, it seems a bit hypocritical and spineless. NATO is vociferous about supplying thousands of anti-tank missiles and other land based weapons to destroy Russian tanks and kill Russian soldiers, but they won’t send over a few dozen aircraft to do likewise and help protect Ukrainian troops and civilians.
We’re supposed to believe that Putin starts talking about going nuclear over Truss’ comments but I didn’t hear a reaction from him to sending military jets. I wonder if something’s been said behind the scenes and the calculation is that the Ukrainians are doing well enough without them to not need to take that step.https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/opinions_192582...
If true, it seems a bit hypocritical and spineless. NATO is vociferous about supplying thousands of anti-tank missiles and other land based weapons to destroy Russian tanks and kill Russian soldiers, but they won’t send over a few dozen aircraft to do likewise and help protect Ukrainian troops and civilians.
LotusOmega375D said:
The article is based on a what was reported in a NATO press conference yesterday. It seems pretty certain that those earmarked aircraft won’t end up being used in Ukraine.
https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/opinions_192582...
If true, it seems a bit hypocritical and spineless. NATO is vociferous about supplying thousands of anti-tank missiles and other land based weapons to destroy Russian tanks and kill Russian soldiers, but they won’t send over a few dozen aircraft to do likewise and help protect Ukrainian troops and civilians.
Well, if I read between the lines: https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/opinions_192582...
If true, it seems a bit hypocritical and spineless. NATO is vociferous about supplying thousands of anti-tank missiles and other land based weapons to destroy Russian tanks and kill Russian soldiers, but they won’t send over a few dozen aircraft to do likewise and help protect Ukrainian troops and civilians.
"NATO Secretary General Jens Stoltenberg: NATO is not going to send the troops into Ukraine or move planes into Ukrainian airspace. Then, I think it is for President Duda to answer the question about Potential Polish planes being made available For the Ukrainian Air Force"
"President of Poland Andrzej Duda: Gentlemen, as Secretary General has now said, we are not sending any jets to Ukraine
because that would open a military interference in the Ukrainian conflict. [...] However, we are not going to send any jets to the Ukrainian airspace.
my interpretation is that no Jet under polish insignia will enter UA airspace, that does not rule out that might let Ukrainian AF to enter into possession of dismissed aircrafts from the Polish AF (although I don't believe this will happen for the reasons explained by others above)
EDITED due to formatting issues
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