Horten 229 flying wing doc on Freevee

[JonChalk]

Went back a bit and couldn't see a thread on this, but apologies if a repeat post, but there's a not too bad doc on Amazon's Freevee channel on the wooden (more or less), jet-engined Horten 229 flying wing bomber, and establishing whether it was radar-stealthy.

Not very deep, (and also not very new - 2009 - but only just popped up on Freevee I think) but pretty interesting, as it's a WW2 plane I wasn't really aware of, as most of the wunderwaffe docs focus on the rocket-powered planes, V-weapons and stupid-sized tanks.

[tracer.smart]

I watched this last night - quite interesting. It’s a shame they didn’t do a deeper documentary on the real 229 which is undergoing conservation at the moment.

Also came across a show on the Me 323 Gigant wreck that was found off the coast of Sardinia when I browsed ‘Customers also viewed’. Worth a watch, made in 2013 but still veterans and eyewitnesses around to interview back then.

[JonChalk]

tracer.smart said:

I watched this last night - quite interesting. It’s a shame they didn’t do a deeper documentary on the real 229 which is undergoing conservation at the moment.

Also came across a show on the Me 323 Gigant wreck that was found off the coast of Sardinia when I browsed ‘Customers also viewed’. Worth a watch, made in 2013 but still veterans and eyewitnesses around to interview back then.

Found that now - thanks for the tip. Added to Watchlist.

[spitfire-ian]

There's a page about its stealth qualities on the Smithsonian's website

https://airandspace.si.edu/research/projects/conse...

[Eric Mc]

Even though it was not designed with stealth in mind. Research into reducing radar cross section did not begin until the mid to late 1950s.

[Shuvi]

Ah, the Horton 229. A plane surrounded by myths. Flying wings had been around for years, and the Horton 229 was not in the least bit stealthy. After the war, no allied nation wanted the Horton brothers or their designs. Entertaining LazerPig video on the subject here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NnrauXbC7yM

[Simpo Two]

Shuvi said:

Ah, the Horton 229. A plane surrounded by myths. Flying wings had been around for years, and the Horton 229 was not in the least bit stealthy. After the war, no allied nation wanted the Horton brothers or their designs. Entertaining LazerPig video on the subject here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NnrauXbC7yM

I suspect that any reduced radar signature was because it was largely made from wood - because they'd run out of metal.

I'm not sure if the programme I saw was the same one, but it seemed that the stealth aspect was pushed to make it a bit more 'woo'. A couple of Americans made a big wooden box and put some fan blades in it - was that the one?

As with other German designs, remarkable ideas but a decade too early to work well.

[Shuvi]

Simpo Two said:

I suspect that any reduced radar signature was because it was largely made from wood - because they'd run out of metal.

I'm not sure if the programme I saw was the same one, but it seemed that the stealth aspect was pushed to make it a bit more 'woo'. A couple of Americans made a big wooden box and put some fan blades in it - was that the one?

As with other German designs, remarkable ideas but a decade too early to work well.

I haven't seen any show about this, but then I haven't watched TV in about 15yrs. Northrop tested big flying wings years before the 229. I guess no one shouts 'stealth' when they see that because it doesn't resemble the B2 quite as much.
I'm not sure that the stealth thing came up until recently.

[annodomini2]

Shuvi said:

Simpo Two said:

I suspect that any reduced radar signature was because it was largely made from wood - because they'd run out of metal.

I'm not sure if the programme I saw was the same one, but it seemed that the stealth aspect was pushed to make it a bit more 'woo'. A couple of Americans made a big wooden box and put some fan blades in it - was that the one?

As with other German designs, remarkable ideas but a decade too early to work well.

I haven't seen any show about this, but then I haven't watched TV in about 15yrs. Northrop tested big flying wings years before the 229. I guess no one shouts 'stealth' when they see that because it doesn't resemble the B2 quite as much.
I'm not sure that the stealth thing came up until recently.

There was a program about 10yrs ago, they put a mock up on a radar cross section test stand.

They claimed that the radar cross section, combined with the speed of the aircraft and with the radar technology available at the time would have given them the edge against the response time for the RAF, to potentially attack the radar stations in the south of England and bug out before the RAF could scramble and intercept them.

Are they stealth as we would know it today, no.

But had they been available earlier in the war, e.g. Battle of Britain, they may have changed the result.

[JonChalk]

annodomini2 said:

Shuvi said:

Simpo Two said:

I suspect that any reduced radar signature was because it was largely made from wood - because they'd run out of metal.

I'm not sure if the programme I saw was the same one, but it seemed that the stealth aspect was pushed to make it a bit more 'woo'. A couple of Americans made a big wooden box and put some fan blades in it - was that the one?

As with other German designs, remarkable ideas but a decade too early to work well.

I haven't seen any show about this, but then I haven't watched TV in about 15yrs. Northrop tested big flying wings years before the 229. I guess no one shouts 'stealth' when they see that because it doesn't resemble the B2 quite as much.
I'm not sure that the stealth thing came up until recently.

There was a program about 10yrs ago, they put a mock up on a radar cross section test stand.

They claimed that the radar cross section, combined with the speed of the aircraft and with the radar technology available at the time would have given them the edge against the response time for the RAF, to potentially attack the radar stations in the south of England and bug out before the RAF could scramble and intercept them.

Are they stealth as we would know it today, no.

But had they been available earlier in the war, e.g. Battle of Britain, they may have changed the result.

...and......we're back to that start of the thread - that's this film.

[Shuvi]

annodomini2 said:

There was a program about 10yrs ago, they put a mock up on a radar cross section test stand.

They claimed that the radar cross section, combined with the speed of the aircraft and with the radar technology available at the time would have given them the edge against the response time for the RAF, to potentially attack the radar stations in the south of England and bug out before the RAF could scramble and intercept them.

Are they stealth as we would know it today, no.

But had they been available earlier in the war, e.g. Battle of Britain, they may have changed the result.

Well kinda. The 229 didn't have big whirly things on it...

[hidetheelephants]

annodomini2 said:

There was a program about 10yrs ago, they put a mock up on a radar cross section test stand.

They claimed that the radar cross section, combined with the speed of the aircraft and with the radar technology available at the time would have given them the edge against the response time for the RAF, to potentially attack the radar stations in the south of England and bug out before the RAF could scramble and intercept them.

Are they stealth as we would know it today, no.

But had they been available earlier in the war, e.g. Battle of Britain, they may have changed the result.

Except they tried bombing radar stations and they sucked at it, so stealth wouldn't have helped much.

[annodomini2]

hidetheelephants said:

annodomini2 said:

There was a program about 10yrs ago, they put a mock up on a radar cross section test stand.

They claimed that the radar cross section, combined with the speed of the aircraft and with the radar technology available at the time would have given them the edge against the response time for the RAF, to potentially attack the radar stations in the south of England and bug out before the RAF could scramble and intercept them.

Are they stealth as we would know it today, no.

But had they been available earlier in the war, e.g. Battle of Britain, they may have changed the result.

Except they tried bombing radar stations and they sucked at it, so stealth wouldn't have helped much.

The HO229 was never in service, the bombers they had were much slower and with a greater cross section.

It's simple maths, if the detection + travel time to the target + time for attack is less than the scramble and interception time, they have a greater chance of success.

[hidetheelephants]

annodomini2 said:

hidetheelephants said:

annodomini2 said:

There was a program about 10yrs ago, they put a mock up on a radar cross section test stand.

They claimed that the radar cross section, combined with the speed of the aircraft and with the radar technology available at the time would have given them the edge against the response time for the RAF, to potentially attack the radar stations in the south of England and bug out before the RAF could scramble and intercept them.

Are they stealth as we would know it today, no.

But had they been available earlier in the war, e.g. Battle of Britain, they may have changed the result.

Except they tried bombing radar stations and they sucked at it, so stealth wouldn't have helped much.

The HO229 was never in service, the bombers they had were much slower and with a greater cross section.

It's simple maths, if the detection + travel time to the target + time for attack is less than the scramble and interception time, they have a greater chance of success.

It doesn't matter if they evade radar detection if the bombs they drop don't hit anything; they sucked at bombing, just like everyone else in 1940.

[Simpo Two]

hidetheelephants said:

It doesn't matter if they evade radar detection if the bombs they drop don't hit anything; they sucked at bombing, just like everyone else in 1940.

Ju87 was pretty accurate - but radar towers are a very small target and the Stukas couldn't survive combat with the RAF.

Low level bombing was accurate (eg Do17* attack on an RAF airfield I forget) but you have to do it in daylight and then again you're up against the defences.

• Courtesy of Eric!

Edited by Simpo Two on Sunday 29th May 21:10

[Eric Mc]

Kenley got hammered by some Dornier 17s that went in low. But the Dorniers suffered heavily.

[Simpo Two]

Eric Mc said:

Kenley got hammered by some Dornier 17s that went in low. But the Dorniers suffered heavily.

Bingo, that was it. Have a biscuit!

[Eric Mc]

There is a well known photo taken from one of the Dorniers showing a Soitfire parked in one of the E Pens that were located at Kenley. Some of the pens still exist.