Train coaches overcrowded
Discussion
t.
The railways can't win can they. Everyone wants nice new carriages which don't catch fire or fall apart in a crash, with air conditioning and wired for sound etc. Such carriages cost a heap more than say a Mark 1 or Mark 3 carriage, so the TOCS can't afford to buy more than they need and to get the most buck for bang squeeze as many seats in a possible. So you get trains which are air conditioned and tick all the marketing boxes, but which are claustrophobic, often overcrowded and always uncomfortable.
One of the best things about heritage trains is the luxury of huge seats and tons of space to stretch out.
One of the best things about heritage trains is the luxury of huge seats and tons of space to stretch out.
Few different reasons.
Lack of available rolling stock is probably the most likely reason for not strengthening services.
Sheffield to Leeds and York is likely to be Northern and a lot of our rolling stock is more than 35 years old, so breaks, a lot.
Even our newer stuff has issues. Not least the fact they insist on sticking loads of tables in when they'd be better served just putting seats in.
Lack of available rolling stock is probably the most likely reason for not strengthening services.
Sheffield to Leeds and York is likely to be Northern and a lot of our rolling stock is more than 35 years old, so breaks, a lot.
Even our newer stuff has issues. Not least the fact they insist on sticking loads of tables in when they'd be better served just putting seats in.
ChocolateFrog said:
Few different reasons.
Lack of available rolling stock is probably the most likely reason for not strengthening services.
Sheffield to Leeds and York is likely to be Northern and a lot of our rolling stock is more than 35 years old, so breaks, a lot.
Even our newer stuff has issues. Not least the fact they insist on sticking loads of tables in when they'd be better served just putting seats in.
Or XS Country. Who are even worse.Lack of available rolling stock is probably the most likely reason for not strengthening services.
Sheffield to Leeds and York is likely to be Northern and a lot of our rolling stock is more than 35 years old, so breaks, a lot.
Even our newer stuff has issues. Not least the fact they insist on sticking loads of tables in when they'd be better served just putting seats in.
Earthdweller said:
I remember buying a Weekend First ticket from Wellingborough to Hull a couple of years ago. The first mainline section of the journey up to Sheffield was comfortable and relaxing. However, stepping into the godawful Pacer on the local service to Hull was like going 40 years back in time.
Louis Balfour said:
Can I have a stab at this?
It's because it is cheaper for the operator to run as few carriages as possible and there are no penalties for overcrowding.
Not correct.It's because it is cheaper for the operator to run as few carriages as possible and there are no penalties for overcrowding.
As has been pointed out by others, the operator runs the trains specified (ie type, number of seats etc) by the Department for Transport.
Blame for overcrowding lies there. The operator does not have it within there power to put on extra stock.
DFT meanwhile is having a good clear out of older stock, so making the situation worse, with no way back.
I’ve done some more digging into this.
A retired railway worker has said that the strike that was going ahead on the following day Saturday 30th Sept would have had an impact on the service offered on both the day before and the day after.
The train operators would have been taking stock to different locations due to the strike. Then on the Sunday moving it around again after the strike. This would have impacted on the level of service offered on the days either side of the strike day.
Add to this, sone of the passengers who instead of being able to travel on the strike day would be travelling on the Friday instead. This makes sense as the train I was on was a late evening Scotland to Bristol service so folk would perhaps have been travelling on the Friday instead.
A retired railway worker has said that the strike that was going ahead on the following day Saturday 30th Sept would have had an impact on the service offered on both the day before and the day after.
The train operators would have been taking stock to different locations due to the strike. Then on the Sunday moving it around again after the strike. This would have impacted on the level of service offered on the days either side of the strike day.
Add to this, sone of the passengers who instead of being able to travel on the strike day would be travelling on the Friday instead. This makes sense as the train I was on was a late evening Scotland to Bristol service so folk would perhaps have been travelling on the Friday instead.
Weekend services are heavily oversubscribed anyway due to the resurgence of passenger demand which is now beyond pre-covid levels.
The strike wouldn't have helped admittedly but there's been little talk from the DfT (who control virtually everything now from timetables to rolling stock) on beefing up the weekend service to cope with this increased demand especially at a time when every penny of revenue counts and it will be an opportunity lost when people tire of standing on trains that are too short or not frequent enough and go back to cars but that's the government for you who'd rather let the railways run themselves into the ground for political expediency than actually try and give what passengers want which is a reliable and frequent service.
The strike wouldn't have helped admittedly but there's been little talk from the DfT (who control virtually everything now from timetables to rolling stock) on beefing up the weekend service to cope with this increased demand especially at a time when every penny of revenue counts and it will be an opportunity lost when people tire of standing on trains that are too short or not frequent enough and go back to cars but that's the government for you who'd rather let the railways run themselves into the ground for political expediency than actually try and give what passengers want which is a reliable and frequent service.
Dingu said:
Would you prefer them to stop selling tickets when they’ve sold all seats worth so you can’t then go where you want to go and inevitably having to pay more to do so when you can go?
Also, the train network anywhere north of Birmingham is woefully under invested in, that’s on the clowns in government though.
Personally I would like them to put enough trains/carriages on so that I could occasionally get a seat on the train to work. I used to carry a small camping stool so that I could sit due to chronic back pain. Often there wasn't enough space to use the stool. For that service I paid over 5k a year, plus another £800 to park.Also, the train network anywhere north of Birmingham is woefully under invested in, that’s on the clowns in government though.
I retired early and part of that was because the misery of commuting.
This is the south east, travelling into London.
The trains are still empty heading into London on Monday and Fridays but the rest of the week is getting a bit busier but still nothing like the rush hour pre pandemic.
It would be nice if they did ticket checks in the South and only let people on who paid as loads of people are caught out in the rare occurance they do decide to conduct ticket spot checks whereas in the North they seem to be a lot hotter on ticket checking.
The South
I can get on the same train today in the S/E to London that I got on as a child 30 year ago (Hayes to Charing X) so it's not just the north that's being missed out on some rail lines.
It would be nice if they did ticket checks in the South and only let people on who paid as loads of people are caught out in the rare occurance they do decide to conduct ticket spot checks whereas in the North they seem to be a lot hotter on ticket checking.
Earthdweller said:
The North
The South
I can get on the same train today in the S/E to London that I got on as a child 30 year ago (Hayes to Charing X) so it's not just the north that's being missed out on some rail lines.
untakenname said:
It would be nice if they did ticket checks in the South and only let people on who paid as loads of people are caught out in the rare occurance they do decide to conduct ticket spot checks whereas in the North they seem to be a lot hotter on ticket checking..
A fair amount of services in the south are driver only operation, whereas the majority still in the north have guards - thus more frequent ticket checks.Goodness knows how much revenue is lost thanks to fare evasion, especially on trains without guards.
monkfish1 said:
Louis Balfour said:
Can I have a stab at this?
It's because it is cheaper for the operator to run as few carriages as possible and there are no penalties for overcrowding.
Not correct.It's because it is cheaper for the operator to run as few carriages as possible and there are no penalties for overcrowding.
As has been pointed out by others, the operator runs the trains specified (ie type, number of seats etc) by the Department for Transport.
Blame for overcrowding lies there. The operator does not have it within there power to put on extra stock.
DFT meanwhile is having a good clear out of older stock, so making the situation worse, with no way back.
Late notice reduction of coaches is usually due to a fitness issue. That is quite often maintenance requirement or 'vandalism' which covers a multitude of things.
There are rarely 'spare' coaches lying around in depots. The key word is efficiency. Every resource is maxed out. When something goes wrong, which is a daily occourence, it's downhill from there.
There are rarely 'spare' coaches lying around in depots. The key word is efficiency. Every resource is maxed out. When something goes wrong, which is a daily occourence, it's downhill from there.
untakenname said:
The North
The South
I can get on the same train today in the S/E to London that I got on as a child 30 year ago (Hayes to Charing X) so it's not just the north that's being missed out on some rail lines.
The North one is going into warm storage in December. Look at what you could have won etc (also comparing 1st with standard is hardly fair)The South
I can get on the same train today in the S/E to London that I got on as a child 30 year ago (Hayes to Charing X) so it's not just the north that's being missed out on some rail lines.
There's no first class on that line, back when there was (under Connex) there was no difference in seating positions which was likely why they got rid of it.
No one ever paid any notice to the first class seating on South Eastern due to over crowding anyways in peak times so they removed from all their trains afaik.
No one ever paid any notice to the first class seating on South Eastern due to over crowding anyways in peak times so they removed from all their trains afaik.
Lack of rolling stock is at the heart of the issue.
I commute from York to Derby on Cross Country - they have reintroduced the 07:25 Newcastle to Reading service via Doncaster which in some ways is welcome. This is a 4 or 5 car set.
The knock on effect is that my alternative, the 06:45 from York via Leeds and Wakefield which used to be an 8 or 9 car set, is now also a 4 or 5 car set as the additional service has to be made up of rolling stock from somewhere....
All of these extra services of course turn around somewhere and become a return, with similar space constraints. I have abandoned what used to be my regular 15:45 return trip, as it's impossible to get a seat from Derby.
As mentioned, unfortunately, Cross County are retiring their high capacity HST (also crammed...) but are allegedly getting more stock. I'm fervently hoping they'll take on the Class 68s and Mk5 coaches that Transpennine are retiring which are high capacity and comfortable, but I'm not holding my breath!
For now, depending on your route, and whether it's a regular journey or not, you can probably find alternatives if you don't mind a couple of changes. E.g. my leg home now involves a change at Sheffield and Doncaster but gets me in at the same time as the direct service, without having to stand/cram into the luggage rack....
I commute from York to Derby on Cross Country - they have reintroduced the 07:25 Newcastle to Reading service via Doncaster which in some ways is welcome. This is a 4 or 5 car set.
The knock on effect is that my alternative, the 06:45 from York via Leeds and Wakefield which used to be an 8 or 9 car set, is now also a 4 or 5 car set as the additional service has to be made up of rolling stock from somewhere....
All of these extra services of course turn around somewhere and become a return, with similar space constraints. I have abandoned what used to be my regular 15:45 return trip, as it's impossible to get a seat from Derby.
As mentioned, unfortunately, Cross County are retiring their high capacity HST (also crammed...) but are allegedly getting more stock. I'm fervently hoping they'll take on the Class 68s and Mk5 coaches that Transpennine are retiring which are high capacity and comfortable, but I'm not holding my breath!
For now, depending on your route, and whether it's a regular journey or not, you can probably find alternatives if you don't mind a couple of changes. E.g. my leg home now involves a change at Sheffield and Doncaster but gets me in at the same time as the direct service, without having to stand/cram into the luggage rack....
darkyoung1000 said:
For now, depending on your route, and whether it's a regular journey or not, you can probably find alternatives if you don't mind a couple of changes. E.g. my leg home now involves a change at Sheffield and Doncaster but gets me in at the same time as the direct service, without having to stand/cram into the luggage rack....
My worry with making changes like that are if my train is late and misses the connecting train, or the connecting train is late, or doesn't arrive, hence why I always go the direct route if possible.
) and the Thunderbird train that sits in the corner of the station acting as a standby train for if needed.darkyoung1000 said:
As mentioned, unfortunately, Cross County are retiring their high capacity HST (also crammed...) but are allegedly getting more stock. I'm fervently hoping they'll take on the Class 68s and Mk5 coaches that Transpennine are retiring which are high capacity and comfortable, but I'm not holding my breath!
Be careful what you wish for, I wouldn’t hold my breath on getting home on those hateful heaps of cheap and nasty rubbish. Gassing Station | Boats, Planes & Trains | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff