Cirrus SR22T Crash at Duxford
Discussion
The video shows the characteristics of the inside wing stalling during a turn. This often happens when turing from base to final and is extremely dangerous as there's insufficient altitude to recover.
The intial report says the pilot bounced twice and went around. One thing about the SR20 and (especially) the 22 is that there's no nosewheel steering and when you apply full power you need to apply full right rudder. They're so powerful that full power at low airspeed will induce a lot of yaw. They also need a lot of care and attention when flying slowly due to the skinny wings and slippery airframe.
I think there's been an unfortunate sequence of events here.
The intial report says the pilot bounced twice and went around. One thing about the SR20 and (especially) the 22 is that there's no nosewheel steering and when you apply full power you need to apply full right rudder. They're so powerful that full power at low airspeed will induce a lot of yaw. They also need a lot of care and attention when flying slowly due to the skinny wings and slippery airframe.
I think there's been an unfortunate sequence of events here.
Scarletpimpofnel said:
Thank you.
I believe CAPS is initiated by the pilot, in this case did it trigger as a result of the crash?
Very unlikely to be pilot initiated, more likely to be distortion of the frame triggering it. Although I doubt it would have changed the outcome, once fired, at least there's no longer an explosive device to worry about.I believe CAPS is initiated by the pilot, in this case did it trigger as a result of the crash?
Edited by MarkwG on Thursday 28th March 13:12
ecs said:
The video shows the characteristics of the inside wing stalling during a turn. This often happens when turing from base to final and is extremely dangerous as there's insufficient altitude to recover.
The intial report says the pilot bounced twice and went around. One thing about the SR20 and (especially) the 22 is that there's no nosewheel steering and when you apply full power you need to apply full right rudder. They're so powerful that full power at low airspeed will induce a lot of yaw. They also need a lot of care and attention when flying slowly due to the skinny wings and slippery airframe.
I think there's been an unfortunate sequence of events here.
I had a ride in a Cirrus a few years ago and it certainly felt very "skittish" - comnpared to the Cessna 150/152s I used to fly. The joystick controller was extremely sensitive. You just needed fingertip control to move the plane about.The intial report says the pilot bounced twice and went around. One thing about the SR20 and (especially) the 22 is that there's no nosewheel steering and when you apply full power you need to apply full right rudder. They're so powerful that full power at low airspeed will induce a lot of yaw. They also need a lot of care and attention when flying slowly due to the skinny wings and slippery airframe.
I think there's been an unfortunate sequence of events here.
Eric Mc said:
ecs said:
The video shows the characteristics of the inside wing stalling during a turn. This often happens when turing from base to final and is extremely dangerous as there's insufficient altitude to recover.
The intial report says the pilot bounced twice and went around. One thing about the SR20 and (especially) the 22 is that there's no nosewheel steering and when you apply full power you need to apply full right rudder. They're so powerful that full power at low airspeed will induce a lot of yaw. They also need a lot of care and attention when flying slowly due to the skinny wings and slippery airframe.
I think there's been an unfortunate sequence of events here.
I had a ride in a Cirrus a few years ago and it certainly felt very "skittish" - comnpared to the Cessna 150/152s I used to fly. The joystick controller was extremely sensitive. You just needed fingertip control to move the plane about.The intial report says the pilot bounced twice and went around. One thing about the SR20 and (especially) the 22 is that there's no nosewheel steering and when you apply full power you need to apply full right rudder. They're so powerful that full power at low airspeed will induce a lot of yaw. They also need a lot of care and attention when flying slowly due to the skinny wings and slippery airframe.
I think there's been an unfortunate sequence of events here.
Whilst there were no injuries as a result of the crash, there was one caused a few days later when the chap sent to disarm the BRS rocket in the burned wreckage, which had been hauled off next to one of the black hangars, walked into the propeller of an ancient Gannet next to the Cirrus, cut his head open and I think ended up in hospital.
Eric Mc said:
Why have so many Cirruses based in the UK retained their US registrations? Was there some issue in getting them on to the UK register?
I don't think there is an issue with getting a Cirrus on the G-register, but some owners may stay on the N-reg in the UK because of perceived advantages in being able to exercise an FAA Instrument Rating, and I think it may be easier to apply some modifications to an N-reg aircraft.Edited by eharding on Thursday 28th March 13:16
These aircraft are designed to be flown IFR. To add an IR to your PPL, you need to sit all of the CPL written exams (150hrs training) and do 50hrs of instrument training minimum. It's quite a pain in the arse:
https://pplir.org/getting-the-rating/
On the other hand, you can exchange your UK PPL for an FAA PPL and get an FAA IR. You need to sit 3 exams (30hrs training) and depending on the type of IR you want, you need to do around 15-35hrs of instrument flying. This can be done in less than a month and you can do more hours in a simulator.
https://pplir.org/getting-the-rating/
On the other hand, you can exchange your UK PPL for an FAA PPL and get an FAA IR. You need to sit 3 exams (30hrs training) and depending on the type of IR you want, you need to do around 15-35hrs of instrument flying. This can be done in less than a month and you can do more hours in a simulator.
You can get an IR(R) (previously IFR Rating) added to your PPL in about 15hrs, but you can't fly in Class A airspace and you're minimum visibility for arrival/departure is 1500m so you're far more restricted. This rating is more for safety, if you get caught out by the weather you've been trained to fly an instrument approach and can land safely providing you meet the minimas. You can also fly 'VMC on top' which is fancy talk for climbing through the clouds and weather to find a sunny bit (and is an oxymoron because VMC means in sight of the surface).
Eric Mc said:
48k said:
hidetheelephants said:
Eric Mc said:
Light aircraft don’t carry flight data recorders.
The fancier multifunction displays do record a lot of information, if one was fitted it may yield helpful info.I was referring to the specific hardened/crashproof type recorders which are mandated for passenger carrying aircraft over a certain size. Light aircraft do not carry those.
ecs said:
The video shows the characteristics of the inside wing stalling during a turn. This often happens when turing from base to final and is extremely dangerous as there's insufficient altitude to recover.
The intial report says the pilot bounced twice and went around. One thing about the SR20 and (especially) the 22 is that there's no nosewheel steering and when you apply full power you need to apply full right rudder. They're so powerful that full power at low airspeed will induce a lot of yaw. They also need a lot of care and attention when flying slowly due to the skinny wings and slippery airframe.
I think there's been an unfortunate sequence of events here.
Certainly sounds like it. From reading on another forum it seems that the pilot had undertaken the 3 day Cirrus Pilot Training Programme (something Cirrus offer FoC with all new or used purchases) and was considered pretty competent, but with his third touch and go resulting in a couple of bounces something has clearly gone pear shaped for him and he's ended up in a configuration that was unrecoverable that close to the ground. A very unfortunate sequence of events.The intial report says the pilot bounced twice and went around. One thing about the SR20 and (especially) the 22 is that there's no nosewheel steering and when you apply full power you need to apply full right rudder. They're so powerful that full power at low airspeed will induce a lot of yaw. They also need a lot of care and attention when flying slowly due to the skinny wings and slippery airframe.
I think there's been an unfortunate sequence of events here.
48k said:
Eric Mc said:
48k said:
hidetheelephants said:
Eric Mc said:
Light aircraft don’t carry flight data recorders.
The fancier multifunction displays do record a lot of information, if one was fitted it may yield helpful info.I was referring to the specific hardened/crashproof type recorders which are mandated for passenger carrying aircraft over a certain size. Light aircraft do not carry those.
48k said:
Nobody said they did. You brought it up for some reason, despite it being a complete irrelevance as the aircraft wouldn't have been fitted with one.
It's amazing how many people think that all aircraft have "black boxes" similar to the ones carried on airliners.That's why I said what I said. If you think it was irrelevant, fair enough. I can't predict everybody's level of knowledge about such matters.As has been said, with so much of the instrumentation on aircraft like the Cirrus being based on LCD/electronic displays, it does mean that there may be more digital data available - depending on how well the airframe has survived the crash. If there is a fire, I doubt if any information could be obtained from the wreckage.
In crashes involving old style instruments, the position of needles and other indicators at the time of the accident could sometimes give some clues as to what the aeroplane was doing at the point of impact. That type of information isn't obtainable in the same way with "glass cocpits" but there are other avenues that can be explored.
Eric Mc said:
48k said:
Nobody said they did. You brought it up for some reason, despite it being a complete irrelevance as the aircraft wouldn't have been fitted with one.
It's amazing how many people think that all aircraft have "black boxes" similar to the ones carried on airliners.That's why I said what I said. If you think it was irrelevant, fair enough. I can't predict everybody's level of knowledge about such matters.Eric Mc said:
As has been said, with so much of the instrumentation on aircraft like the Cirrus being based on LCD/electronic displays, it does mean that there may be more digital data available - depending on how well the airframe has survived the crash. If there is a fire, I doubt if any information could be obtained from the wreckage.
In crashes involving old style instruments, the position of needles and other indicators at the time of the accident could sometimes give some clues as to what the aeroplane was doing at the point of impact. That type of information isn't obtainable in the same way with "glass cocpits" but there are other avenues that can be explored.
Despite this SR22 having a glass cockpit, it still has a set of old-school steam driven instruments as a backup. Although in this case the video and FR data plus any data recoverable from onboard should tell the AAIB all they need to know. In crashes involving old style instruments, the position of needles and other indicators at the time of the accident could sometimes give some clues as to what the aeroplane was doing at the point of impact. That type of information isn't obtainable in the same way with "glass cocpits" but there are other avenues that can be explored.
Elsewhere on the internet there is a quote of an SR22 incident in Australia last year which looks to have similarities with what appears to have happened at Duxford and what ecs was describing above...
the internet said:
On 17 March 2023, the pilot of a Cirrus SR22, registered VH-XGR, was conducting a private flight under the instrument flight rules from Southport, Queensland to Bankstown, New South Wales.
During the landing, the aircraft sunk onto the runway and bounced along the runway for about 5 seconds, then rapidly entered a steep climbing turn to the left. Having reached a maximum height of about 40 ft, the bank angle exceeded 90° and the aircraft dropped onto the left wing and nose.
What the ATSB found
In the early stages of a go-around from an unstable landing, the pilot was unable to counter the substantial torque effect associated with high engine power, low airspeed, and high pitch angle, resulting in loss of control and collision with terrain
During the landing, the aircraft sunk onto the runway and bounced along the runway for about 5 seconds, then rapidly entered a steep climbing turn to the left. Having reached a maximum height of about 40 ft, the bank angle exceeded 90° and the aircraft dropped onto the left wing and nose.
What the ATSB found
In the early stages of a go-around from an unstable landing, the pilot was unable to counter the substantial torque effect associated with high engine power, low airspeed, and high pitch angle, resulting in loss of control and collision with terrain
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