Starting Sailing
Discussion
Simpo Two said:
Well he said 'sailing boat, nothing glamourous 23 to 27 foot', so that narrows it down a lot but we don't have a budget.
That size is trailerable, but presumably if there's a keel sticking out that's not a DIY option as it would be with a cruiser.
The best route might be to buy a 'starter boat' - if it turns out he doesn't like sailing it he can sell it; if he says 'wow this is fantastic' he can find more money and buy bigger/better.
Not sure 'starter boats' are really a thing in yacht sailing.That size is trailerable, but presumably if there's a keel sticking out that's not a DIY option as it would be with a cruiser.
The best route might be to buy a 'starter boat' - if it turns out he doesn't like sailing it he can sell it; if he says 'wow this is fantastic' he can find more money and buy bigger/better.
Edited by Simpo Two on Tuesday 23 April 10:16
Small cheap boats can be hard to sell and expensive to store.
They can also have lots of worn out stuff.
Under 25' is technically trailerable, but the reality is they aren't; a few hardy types do tour with them far and wide but most just use the trailer as a means of cheap storage at home or anywhere that isn't a boatyard. Stepping and unstepping a mast is tiring and time-consuming, some find it a bit nerve-jangling, and launching and recovering is a very physical activity in anything other than a flat calm. After a few goes most owners decide that getting a yard to lift it in and out is a luxury worth paying for. The other significant point is that the 23-27' category is not one blessed with a lot of choice if a new or nearly new boat is desired, most builders abandoned this size in the 90s as they could make more money building bigger boats. If an older boat is acceptable there are many to choose from as this size was very popular and more or less all boatbuilders sold them from the advent of GRP construction in the 60s right through to the 90s 'elvis bloat' phase.
Oliver Hardy said:
I have been for years thinking of buying a sailing boat, nothing glamorous 23 to 27 foot, I have these fantasies of visiting some of the Scottish Islands and maybe going to Spain or Portugal one day.
I am in the process of booking lessons.
But what should I be looking for in a boat?
Assuming that after the experience of the lessons, you're still interested in sailing...I am in the process of booking lessons.
But what should I be looking for in a boat?
Cheap, tough, forgiving. If it's popular too, you also have a breadth and depth of the experience of other owners to draw on.
I bought a Westerly Centaur, which ticks all those boxes and more.
It's quite a learning curve. In addition to learning how to sail, you'll also need some idea about navigation, be able to use a chart plotter if you have one, and obtain a VHF licence (it's illegal to use a VHF radio without a licence, it's insane to go sailing without one.)
And then the fun of buying all the kit. I think even with discounts I spent over £1,000 on foul weather gear which for UK sailing really does make a difference for being able to sail all year round. Lifejacket, safety equipment all add up.
And as someone else mentioned if you join a local sailing club you can make contacts and build experience on a range of yachts to help make a decision on what you want whilst building the skills. The easy part is the sailing, it’s the problem solving when things go wrong that’s the hard part as it will always happen at the worst possible moment.
And as someone else mentioned if you join a local sailing club you can make contacts and build experience on a range of yachts to help make a decision on what you want whilst building the skills. The easy part is the sailing, it’s the problem solving when things go wrong that’s the hard part as it will always happen at the worst possible moment.
Oliver Hardy said:
I have been for years thinking of buying a sailing boat, nothing glamourous 23 to 27 foot, I have these fantasies of visiting some of the Scottish Islands and maybe going to Spain or Portugal one day.
I am in the process of booking lessons.
But what should I be looking for in a boat?
On the assumption that the plan is to sail to the Scottish Islands or Spain / Portugal rather than tow and launch, it might be worthwhile going with someone experienced. The Scottish coast and the Bay of Biscay could be fairly challenging on your own with little experience.I am in the process of booking lessons.
But what should I be looking for in a boat?
Definitely get lessons through the RYA certified centre. Try to get a crewing job for a few trips if you can just to get a feel for everything. Got to a local sailing club and ask around. Most people will try to help.
I can't offer any advice about boats as most of my experience is 20ft or less.
The advice to do your Competent Crew and maybe up to Day skipper, is sound. That allows you to get a feel for the type of sailing you may want to do and how boats handle, getting into some heavy weather (under instruction) and generally talking boats with your instructors.
Likewise join a club - definitely worthwhile. A lot of them will offer courses to members, and the likes of a Day Skipper theory course over the winter.
You'll then have an appreciation for the right boat. No point getting a lightly built boat if you are going to try your hand around the west coast of Scotland. You would not want to be going over the tidal race at Ardnamurchan in something a bit light and tippy.
As for your proposed boat. I guess you have a budget of around £15,000. That would get you a decent, if older, boat such as a GK24, Sadler 26, Hunter Horizon, numerous French stuff form the 80's, MGC 27 or MG Spring (might be a touch lightly built). Older boats might be a touch basic inside, but tend to be of a heavier build, with a good ballast ratio so good in a poor sea. They also often come with lots of kit. Ideal for Scotland
Basically, lots and lots of well respected boats in the 27 foot / £12k to £15k range.
You don't need a 40 foot boat. Anything that size needs crew, has lots of string, will not be forgiving if you make a mistake and hoover up all your cash. As the former owner of a 42 foot offshore racing yacht, I am still paying the bills.
Start on a small, well built yacht and get to know it. Get yourself a copy of the West Coast Pilot and spend evenings with a malt, looking at all the little anchorages along the Scottish coast, making plans.
If you learn to sail in Scotland, you can sail anywhere. Get it wrong on the south coast, and you come to a gentle stop and wait for the rising tide. Get it wrong in Scotland and it goes "clang" and you sink.
Likewise join a club - definitely worthwhile. A lot of them will offer courses to members, and the likes of a Day Skipper theory course over the winter.
You'll then have an appreciation for the right boat. No point getting a lightly built boat if you are going to try your hand around the west coast of Scotland. You would not want to be going over the tidal race at Ardnamurchan in something a bit light and tippy.
As for your proposed boat. I guess you have a budget of around £15,000. That would get you a decent, if older, boat such as a GK24, Sadler 26, Hunter Horizon, numerous French stuff form the 80's, MGC 27 or MG Spring (might be a touch lightly built). Older boats might be a touch basic inside, but tend to be of a heavier build, with a good ballast ratio so good in a poor sea. They also often come with lots of kit. Ideal for Scotland
Basically, lots and lots of well respected boats in the 27 foot / £12k to £15k range.
You don't need a 40 foot boat. Anything that size needs crew, has lots of string, will not be forgiving if you make a mistake and hoover up all your cash. As the former owner of a 42 foot offshore racing yacht, I am still paying the bills.
Start on a small, well built yacht and get to know it. Get yourself a copy of the West Coast Pilot and spend evenings with a malt, looking at all the little anchorages along the Scottish coast, making plans.
If you learn to sail in Scotland, you can sail anywhere. Get it wrong on the south coast, and you come to a gentle stop and wait for the rising tide. Get it wrong in Scotland and it goes "clang" and you sink.
Although I started in sailing dinghies at 13 it was only in my 20s when I crewed in races in the Junior Offshore Group that I really learned how to sail. They have races normally starting in the Solent and racing over to France, the Channel Islands and sometimes a bit further. My sailing with them was in Contessas and Sigmas. Now a bit old fashioned but good sailers. There are various forums advertising crewing positions so that’s an easy way to get involved. You can find yourself in the middle of the night at the helm with everyone down below ill or asleep with nothing but darkness around you and waves coming over the boat wondering if this is what you wanted. Once ashore you’ll be wondering when the next race is and looking forward to being there.
How much do you know about sailing now?
Joining a sailing club would be a good move, they usually have plenty of experienced sailors, and sailing dinghies that you can take out and really feel what the wind is doing to the boat. Capsize that half a dozen times over this summer, and you'll have a fair idea how sail something bigger. In a club members will have bigger boats too and want crew to sail with them, volunteer for that and you'll see what is essential and what isn't onboard on a passage.
Sub 30' there are bargains to be had but check the ropes, lines, pulley blocks and everything as re-rigging is expensive.
I got pretty ripped off on my first boat as I hadn't been on many, so didnt really know what to look for. I hadda make a start somewhere and I learned how everything works in fine detail by repairing it.
Joining a sailing club would be a good move, they usually have plenty of experienced sailors, and sailing dinghies that you can take out and really feel what the wind is doing to the boat. Capsize that half a dozen times over this summer, and you'll have a fair idea how sail something bigger. In a club members will have bigger boats too and want crew to sail with them, volunteer for that and you'll see what is essential and what isn't onboard on a passage.
Sub 30' there are bargains to be had but check the ropes, lines, pulley blocks and everything as re-rigging is expensive.
I got pretty ripped off on my first boat as I hadn't been on many, so didnt really know what to look for. I hadda make a start somewhere and I learned how everything works in fine detail by repairing it.
tendown said:
Where do you live & where are you thinking of keeping it?
23-27 ft sounds about the right size
Beyond that look what's available where you want to sail within your budget and talk to some sellers about costs and boat capabilities
Cheshire at the moment.23-27 ft sounds about the right size
Beyond that look what's available where you want to sail within your budget and talk to some sellers about costs and boat capabilities
Decky_Q said:
How much do you know about sailing now?
Joining a sailing club would be a good move, they usually have plenty of experienced sailors, and sailing dinghies that you can take out and really feel what the wind is doing to the boat. Capsize that half a dozen times over this summer, and you'll have a fair idea how sail something bigger. In a club members will have bigger boats too and want crew to sail with them, volunteer for that and you'll see what is essential and what isn't onboard on a passage.
Sub 30' there are bargains to be had but check the ropes, lines, pulley blocks and everything as re-rigging is expensive.
I got pretty ripped off on my first boat as I hadn't been on many, so didnt really know what to look for. I hadda make a start somewhere and I learned how everything works in fine detail by repairing it.
I have watched plenty of Youtube videos, that is what i know about sailing. Joining a sailing club would be a good move, they usually have plenty of experienced sailors, and sailing dinghies that you can take out and really feel what the wind is doing to the boat. Capsize that half a dozen times over this summer, and you'll have a fair idea how sail something bigger. In a club members will have bigger boats too and want crew to sail with them, volunteer for that and you'll see what is essential and what isn't onboard on a passage.
Sub 30' there are bargains to be had but check the ropes, lines, pulley blocks and everything as re-rigging is expensive.
I got pretty ripped off on my first boat as I hadn't been on many, so didnt really know what to look for. I hadda make a start somewhere and I learned how everything works in fine detail by repairing it.
I started off with a budget of about £20,000 but looking around I think probably half that. There are some incredibly nice (to look at) cheap boats around. When I was in Wales a few months ago got the opportunity to kick the keel of a 1980 Jaguar 25ft boar as the owner was on board £8,000 he wanted for it, looked really nice, still for sale last time I looked about two weeks ago. Did you know Jaguars have little Yamaha engines, was hoping for a V6!
I don't think anyone else has mentioned this so far, but it definitely helps if you're handy with a spanner and a multifunction meter. I sail a 1971 43 footer on the West Coast of Scotland. She's a very pretty plastic classic but at that age everything has either been replaced or is about to be replaced. So it helps if you can:
> Service your own engine and trouble shoot
> Find rogue electrical faults and fix them
> Fit new kit yourself (most old boats will have outdated electronics and electrics so you will be on a continual replacement journey)
> Think logically
Outside of some of the basic safety stuff people have talked about above, buy a new generation anchor and chain (or chain/rode if it's a small boat) and learn to use it properly. Most incidents I've witnessed over the years have been anchoring related and if you can sleep well at anchor in a blow you'll be happy and rested.
Also, if in Scotland (regardless of the time of year) make sure you have a decent diesel warm air heater on board. We run ours pretty much every evening on board 12 months of the year!
> Service your own engine and trouble shoot
> Find rogue electrical faults and fix them
> Fit new kit yourself (most old boats will have outdated electronics and electrics so you will be on a continual replacement journey)
> Think logically
Outside of some of the basic safety stuff people have talked about above, buy a new generation anchor and chain (or chain/rode if it's a small boat) and learn to use it properly. Most incidents I've witnessed over the years have been anchoring related and if you can sleep well at anchor in a blow you'll be happy and rested.
Also, if in Scotland (regardless of the time of year) make sure you have a decent diesel warm air heater on board. We run ours pretty much every evening on board 12 months of the year!
The engine on a sailing boat is only supposed to be used for mooring or motoring in to a dock so they are pretty underpowered for the drag of a long boat with a keel, 3 to 6knts is typical. If its calm winds you can keep her pointing into the waves but progress anywhere will be dead slow until the wind picks up again.
I'm toying with the idea of a solar electric boat. Definitely doable with a catamaran hull on your budget, decent speed, space and no sails to wear out, but still gives the off grid, go anywhere ability. Would you fancy a project?
I'm toying with the idea of a solar electric boat. Definitely doable with a catamaran hull on your budget, decent speed, space and no sails to wear out, but still gives the off grid, go anywhere ability. Would you fancy a project?
Decky_Q said:
The engine on a sailing boat is only supposed to be used for mooring or motoring in to a dock so they are pretty underpowered for the drag of a long boat with a keel, 3 to 6knts is typical. If its calm winds you can keep her pointing into the waves but progress anywhere will be dead slow until the wind picks up again.
I'm toying with the idea of a solar electric boat. Definitely doable with a catamaran hull on your budget, decent speed, space and no sails to wear out, but still gives the off grid, go anywhere ability. Would you fancy a project?
The engines on sailing boats vary quite a lot, but most can make reasonable progress over distances if there's no wind for instance.I'm toying with the idea of a solar electric boat. Definitely doable with a catamaran hull on your budget, decent speed, space and no sails to wear out, but still gives the off grid, go anywhere ability. Would you fancy a project?
My boat is 28ft and has a small 2 cylinder diesel of about 15HP. That's good for about 6 knots. Personally we only motor any great distance if we want to get home in no wind, but it's pretty common for many people to do quite a bit of motoring in a 'sailing' boat.
Even race boats sometimes motor all the way home after a cross-channel race, or from regatta to regatta.
A posher, more modern boat might be quieter under engine, some are like sharing a Reliant Robin with a concrete mixer, which gets stale quickly!
Boats up to about our size used to fairly often have an outboard for power, often in a 'well' in the cockpit rather than hanging off the back. Not so good for distances, especially back in the day of 2 strokes where fuel capacity quickly became an issue.
A few iinshore race boats use electric outboard for getting in and out of marinas etc.
Personally I looked for a boat with a good engine, my boat is over 30 years old but the engine was upgraded about ten years ago. More power, quieter etc.
I have done some cruising years ago on a boat with no engine. Restrictive if you need to get to work on Monday!
Used to sail with my grandparents on a Westerly Centaur which was 26' and perfect for two adults and a small child for an extended weekends or week long adventure in and around UK coastal waters and the odd hop across to Isle of Scilly and Northern France. Fab times would love to re do with my grand kids if/when I have any. I'm sure that there must be many marina's and moorings in the Scottish sea accessible Lochs and islands with similar sized boats, go and see what the preferred boat choice is in your size range and budget, they will be picking them on the basis they are suitable for those waters.
I have done dingy sailing and RYA courses in wayfarers which are essentially replicate a mini yacht more than a racing dingy for relaxed summer day cruise around a harbour, but not really fully comparable to coastal skipping a boat twice the length and with much bigger level of complexity and accountability, so do the right course for the boat and conditions you will be sailing
I have done dingy sailing and RYA courses in wayfarers which are essentially replicate a mini yacht more than a racing dingy for relaxed summer day cruise around a harbour, but not really fully comparable to coastal skipping a boat twice the length and with much bigger level of complexity and accountability, so do the right course for the boat and conditions you will be sailing
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