Discussion
ecsrobin said:
I go back to my earlier post, when there are 3 ground running it’s not unique if there was none it would be another story.
^This.And, probably as it stands, is the least accessible of the 3 as well.
It should have gone to Elvington.....and discussions were held about that, but the major stumbling block to her going there was the fact that YAM couldn't offer her a permanent home under cover, a T&C of the HLF money pumped into her......(and no doubt attitudes within VTS as well) which is rather ironic, given the now current accommodation arrangements at Doncaster...
Edited by aeropilot on Friday 4th February 12:18
Alias218 said:
I don’t see uniqueness being the only prerequisite for assigning value to something. Three is still a vanishingly small number of aircraft, more so when none of them have guaranteed (or as close as possible) long term security. Doncaster, Wellesbourne, Southend - all of these could become housing estates at the next sign of trouble in which case the planes that can’t be flown out would be chopped up. Look at that Victor last year; a great shame despite other, better airframes existing.
Indifference to keeping what we have is what leads to unique aircraft.
As mentioned, I know there are overriding practical considerations but three can easily become zero without realising what we have while we have it.
It’s not a spitfire that you can just hide in the corner of a hangar as a favour or for a few quid. Even with none ground running at least there are museums with them in their collections. Only big enthusiasts would ever make the effort to go to a ground run whereas thousands a day probably see the ones in the 3 museums sparking just as much imagination to the future generations that get to see them. Indifference to keeping what we have is what leads to unique aircraft.
As mentioned, I know there are overriding practical considerations but three can easily become zero without realising what we have while we have it.
History needs to be accessible.
ecsrobin said:
It’s not a spitfire that you can just hide in the corner of a hangar as a favour or for a few quid. Even with none ground running at least there are museums with them in their collections. Only big enthusiasts would ever make the effort to go to a ground run whereas thousands a day probably see the ones in the 3 museums sparking just as much imagination to the future generations that get to see them.
History needs to be accessible.
This. Not Avro Vulcans, granted, but there are private collectors in their hundreds, maybe thousands, who own and sometimes run/show historic cars and military vehicles. But many unique, or ultra-rare, examples are hidden away in sheds in varying stages of disrepair. These are of no use to ordinary people who want to see a piece of history. But the National Motor Museum, Haynes Museum, and the Tank Museum are all regularly filled with visitors and the sound of camera shutters "clicking" despite often being largely filled with the more common makes and models of various historic machinery. ecsrobin is right to say that history needs to be accessible. I'd go further and say that history is nothing if it isn't, in some way, accessible.History needs to be accessible.
I'd have loved to have seen XH558 go in to Duxford as it's final home. As someone else said, having one in the British Aircraft hangar laid out with it's bombload displayed under it is one thing, but if '558 was there it could do ground runs and fast taxiing more readily because it wouldn't be competeing with scheduled commercial airliners for runway space. And it could run as maybe a "lunch break" in the flying schedule on air show days there. But, on the flipside, you've only got to look at the state of some of their larger exhibits in "airliner row" at Duxford, and you can imagine how '558 might have ended up if it were there. We'll never know now how the aeroplane would fare if it had ended up anywhere else, because absent of getting CAA permission for one last "positioning flight", even if the aircraft and crews are up to it, it's ending it's days at Doncaster now, one way or another...
ecsrobin said:
It’s not a spitfire that you can just hide in the corner of a hangar as a favour or for a few quid. Even with none ground running at least there are museums with them in their collections. Only big enthusiasts would ever make the effort to go to a ground run whereas thousands a day probably see the ones in the 3 museums sparking just as much imagination to the future generations that get to see them.
History needs to be accessible.
Absolutely. I couldn’t agree more. I just think that seeing history come to life is so much more engaging when it’s moving in front of you. It’s why Bovington is so special. So many of its exhibits can drive around and with it their sounds and smells. I’m under no illusion that tanks are an order of magnitude less onerous to maintain than a jet aircraft, but it would be a crying shame if the Vulcan’s howl was no longer heard in person. I just think Duxford could have offered the best chance of keeping at least one Vulcan in ground running condition given it’s resources, technical know-how, and public awareness. History needs to be accessible.
As said previously, I understand that other factors, be they political, financial or otherwise, have obviously stopped this or something like this from happening.
Alias218 said:
I just think Duxford could have offered the best chance of keeping at least one Vulcan in ground running condition given it’s resources, technical know-how, and public awareness.
As said previously, I understand that other factors, be they political, financial or otherwise, have obviously stopped this or something like this from happening.
The original plan was for it to go to Duxford........back in 200? before it flew again, as was stated as part of the HLF grant documentation.As said previously, I understand that other factors, be they political, financial or otherwise, have obviously stopped this or something like this from happening.
By 2015....I guess things had changed at either IWM or within VTS, that it was not an option. I would guess, for the same reason as Elvington, there was no way to put a roof over it's head.......which is why they chose to return it back to Doncaster International.......and here we are, over 6 years later, having spunked millions on salaries and fess and lord knows what else, they say they can't raise the £2m funds to build a hanger for it.....
Which was all pretty much what 99% of the people involved in historic aircraft preservation said would happen.
Given the change in attitude and influx of young museum professionals to running the IWM in the past few years who seem to have no knowledge or interest in old aircraft, its probably just as well it didn't go to Duxford, as I think its long term future there would have been even more questionable than at Doncaster!
A lot of aviation museums in the UK have failed to modernise. There's plenty of ways in which a Vulcan could be static displayed as a major exhibit, but nobody is moving forwards in that regard. Those that are on outdoor static display are looking tatty (/appalling), with the occasional offer of 5 minutes sat in the cramped lower deck as a point of interest. That's not particularly interesting for most folk.
The other issue is that as a large aircraft, unless you build a proper viewing platform you're under the wing - and your average museum bod isn't going to get too excited about looking up at a fairly featureless metal triangle.
558 would have been a great opportunity to build a significant and modern exhibit at an ambitious existing museum. Had the focus been on that rather than dragging out every last second of flying time - at MASSIVE cost, then it would be in a much better position to preserve its heritage and inspire a new generation.
The best presented 'aircraft' exhibit I've ever seen is Space Shuttle Atlantis in Kennedy Space Center. You start the experience in a large 360 degree cinema, where you watch and listen to a presentation of the shuttle. It's full spatial audio and all the rest. Bass which shakes your bones. The whole things builds, and at the very end a curtain raises to present Atlantis. There's a video below but it doesn't come close to showing the impact of the end. The shuttle comes from nowhere and you're facing it head on. The video makes it look small but in reality it's obviously big. Read the comments for the video to get a sense of the impact it has on people, but I was one of those with a lump in my throat and tears in my eyes.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oi9Tvzy8p58&ab...
You then walk forward towards the shuttle, on a walkway which is suspended so you get a fantastic view. There's various displays/simulators etc. Just an incredible exhibit.
Imagine what could have been done with 558 (or another vulcan in suitable condition.
- Mount it at 45 degrees, so the scale and shape become evident.
- Walkways both under the wing and bomb bay (which at that angle is properly visible) and at cockpit level.
- Perhaps beforehand you watch a cinema-esque presentation with a Dolby Atmos system, which ends with a bone-shaking high-resolution audio recording of a flyby and howl.
- Mockup ready room where you watch a brief of something like black buck and a simulated scramble.
- Mockup nav bays with spatial audio of crew chatter.
- VR headset from the cockpit during take off/manouvres.
Any of that would completely set the standard for modern historic aircraft preservation and presentation. Plus I'm sure museums might actually be interested, rather than having to find a massive space to provide guests a view of;
The other issue is that as a large aircraft, unless you build a proper viewing platform you're under the wing - and your average museum bod isn't going to get too excited about looking up at a fairly featureless metal triangle.
558 would have been a great opportunity to build a significant and modern exhibit at an ambitious existing museum. Had the focus been on that rather than dragging out every last second of flying time - at MASSIVE cost, then it would be in a much better position to preserve its heritage and inspire a new generation.
The best presented 'aircraft' exhibit I've ever seen is Space Shuttle Atlantis in Kennedy Space Center. You start the experience in a large 360 degree cinema, where you watch and listen to a presentation of the shuttle. It's full spatial audio and all the rest. Bass which shakes your bones. The whole things builds, and at the very end a curtain raises to present Atlantis. There's a video below but it doesn't come close to showing the impact of the end. The shuttle comes from nowhere and you're facing it head on. The video makes it look small but in reality it's obviously big. Read the comments for the video to get a sense of the impact it has on people, but I was one of those with a lump in my throat and tears in my eyes.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oi9Tvzy8p58&ab...
You then walk forward towards the shuttle, on a walkway which is suspended so you get a fantastic view. There's various displays/simulators etc. Just an incredible exhibit.
Imagine what could have been done with 558 (or another vulcan in suitable condition.
- Mount it at 45 degrees, so the scale and shape become evident.
- Walkways both under the wing and bomb bay (which at that angle is properly visible) and at cockpit level.
- Perhaps beforehand you watch a cinema-esque presentation with a Dolby Atmos system, which ends with a bone-shaking high-resolution audio recording of a flyby and howl.
- Mockup ready room where you watch a brief of something like black buck and a simulated scramble.
- Mockup nav bays with spatial audio of crew chatter.
- VR headset from the cockpit during take off/manouvres.
Any of that would completely set the standard for modern historic aircraft preservation and presentation. Plus I'm sure museums might actually be interested, rather than having to find a massive space to provide guests a view of;
toastyhamster said:
Alias218 said:
It’s rather a shame that Duxford couldn’t take her, but then there’s already one there so no real incentive, even if they weren’t under any contractual obligations.
The way I see it now, XL426 is our best hope of preserving a Vulcan in taxiing condition for the foreseeable.
Just checked XM655, seems in good health? What am I missing? Not checked for a long while but I thought 426 was more restricted due to location?The way I see it now, XL426 is our best hope of preserving a Vulcan in taxiing condition for the foreseeable.
www.avrovulcan.com for more info
XM655 is restricted on power runs at the moment until their runway is repaired, as they tore up a small section when applying full power on a test run.
Marumi said:
A lot of aviation museums in the UK have failed to modernise. There's plenty of ways in which a Vulcan could be static displayed as a major exhibit, but nobody is moving forwards in that regard. Those that are on outdoor static display are looking tatty (/appalling), with the occasional offer of 5 minutes sat in the cramped lower deck as a point of interest. That's not particularly interesting for most folk.
The other issue is that as a large aircraft, unless you build a proper viewing platform you're under the wing - and your average museum bod isn't going to get too excited about looking up at a fairly featureless metal triangle.
558 would have been a great opportunity to build a significant and modern exhibit at an ambitious existing museum. Had the focus been on that rather than dragging out every last second of flying time - at MASSIVE cost, then it would be in a much better position to preserve its heritage and inspire a new generation.
The best presented 'aircraft' exhibit I've ever seen is Space Shuttle Atlantis in Kennedy Space Center. You start the experience in a large 360 degree cinema, where you watch and listen to a presentation of the shuttle. It's full spatial audio and all the rest. Bass which shakes your bones. The whole things builds, and at the very end a curtain raises to present Atlantis. There's a video below but it doesn't come close to showing the impact of the end. The shuttle comes from nowhere and you're facing it head on. The video makes it look small but in reality it's obviously big. Read the comments for the video to get a sense of the impact it has on people, but I was one of those with a lump in my throat and tears in my eyes.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oi9Tvzy8p58&ab...
You then walk forward towards the shuttle, on a walkway which is suspended so you get a fantastic view. There's various displays/simulators etc. Just an incredible exhibit.
Imagine what could have been done with 558 (or another vulcan in suitable condition.
- Mount it at 45 degrees, so the scale and shape become evident.
- Walkways both under the wing and bomb bay (which at that angle is properly visible) and at cockpit level.
- Perhaps beforehand you watch a cinema-esque presentation with a Dolby Atmos system, which ends with a bone-shaking high-resolution audio recording of a flyby and howl.
- Mockup ready room where you watch a brief of something like black buck and a simulated scramble.
- Mockup nav bays with spatial audio of crew chatter.
- VR headset from the cockpit during take off/manouvres.
Any of that would completely set the standard for modern historic aircraft preservation and presentation. Plus I'm sure museums might actually be interested, rather than having to find a massive space to provide guests a view of;
Cosford display the Vulcan well, although there must be more historically important aircraft than the Vulcan that achieved just the black buck raids to display in a way you suggest. The other issue is that as a large aircraft, unless you build a proper viewing platform you're under the wing - and your average museum bod isn't going to get too excited about looking up at a fairly featureless metal triangle.
558 would have been a great opportunity to build a significant and modern exhibit at an ambitious existing museum. Had the focus been on that rather than dragging out every last second of flying time - at MASSIVE cost, then it would be in a much better position to preserve its heritage and inspire a new generation.
The best presented 'aircraft' exhibit I've ever seen is Space Shuttle Atlantis in Kennedy Space Center. You start the experience in a large 360 degree cinema, where you watch and listen to a presentation of the shuttle. It's full spatial audio and all the rest. Bass which shakes your bones. The whole things builds, and at the very end a curtain raises to present Atlantis. There's a video below but it doesn't come close to showing the impact of the end. The shuttle comes from nowhere and you're facing it head on. The video makes it look small but in reality it's obviously big. Read the comments for the video to get a sense of the impact it has on people, but I was one of those with a lump in my throat and tears in my eyes.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oi9Tvzy8p58&ab...
You then walk forward towards the shuttle, on a walkway which is suspended so you get a fantastic view. There's various displays/simulators etc. Just an incredible exhibit.
Imagine what could have been done with 558 (or another vulcan in suitable condition.
- Mount it at 45 degrees, so the scale and shape become evident.
- Walkways both under the wing and bomb bay (which at that angle is properly visible) and at cockpit level.
- Perhaps beforehand you watch a cinema-esque presentation with a Dolby Atmos system, which ends with a bone-shaking high-resolution audio recording of a flyby and howl.
- Mockup ready room where you watch a brief of something like black buck and a simulated scramble.
- Mockup nav bays with spatial audio of crew chatter.
- VR headset from the cockpit during take off/manouvres.
Any of that would completely set the standard for modern historic aircraft preservation and presentation. Plus I'm sure museums might actually be interested, rather than having to find a massive space to provide guests a view of;
ecsrobin said:
Cosford display the Vulcan well, although there must be more historically important aircraft than the Vulcan that achieved just the black buck raids to display in a way you suggest.
However, the Black Buck raids, not were they at that time the longest bombing raids undertaken, but effectively marked the end of not only the V-Bomber era, but also the end of the era that was Bomber Command and use of a 'heavy bomber' as such in RAF service.Those raids were quite an impressive feat at that time, many thinking it not even possible.
What is a shame is that neither of the two Vulcan's that performed the raids were chosen to have a long term preservation life by being selected to be kept indoors...which seemed by many at the time to be odd, and even more so 40 years later.
aeropilot said:
However, the Black Buck raids, not were they at that time the longest bombing raids undertaken, but effectively marked the end of not only the V-Bomber era, but also the end of the era that was Bomber Command and use of a 'heavy bomber' as such in RAF service.
Those raids were quite an impressive feat at that time, many thinking it not even possible.
What is a shame is that neither of the two Vulcan's that performed the raids were chosen to have a long term preservation life by being selected to be kept indoors...which seemed by many at the time to be odd, and even more so 40 years later.
There were seven Black Buck missions and several Vulcans were used.: https://vulcantothesky.org/articles/falklands-war-...Those raids were quite an impressive feat at that time, many thinking it not even possible.
What is a shame is that neither of the two Vulcan's that performed the raids were chosen to have a long term preservation life by being selected to be kept indoors...which seemed by many at the time to be odd, and even more so 40 years later.
Tyre Tread said:
aeropilot said:
However, the Black Buck raids, not were they at that time the longest bombing raids undertaken, but effectively marked the end of not only the V-Bomber era, but also the end of the era that was Bomber Command and use of a 'heavy bomber' as such in RAF service.
Those raids were quite an impressive feat at that time, many thinking it not even possible.
What is a shame is that neither of the two Vulcan's that performed the raids were chosen to have a long term preservation life by being selected to be kept indoors...which seemed by many at the time to be odd, and even more so 40 years later.
There were seven Black Buck missions and several Vulcans were used.: https://vulcantothesky.org/articles/falklands-war-...Those raids were quite an impressive feat at that time, many thinking it not even possible.
What is a shame is that neither of the two Vulcan's that performed the raids were chosen to have a long term preservation life by being selected to be kept indoors...which seemed by many at the time to be odd, and even more so 40 years later.
5 In a Row said:
Are you including XM597?
It's the one that had to divert to Brazil and is now on outside display at East Fortune.
Yes.It's the one that had to divert to Brazil and is now on outside display at East Fortune.
Only two Vulcans completed the 5 x Black Buck raids (BB3 and BB4 were cancelled enroute and a/c rtb)
'607 did all 3 iron bomb raids on Stanley, (BB1, BB2 & BB7) and '597 did the two Shrike missile raids (BB5 & BB6) and it was on the way back from BB6 that '597 diverted to Rio.
'607 is rotting away nicely at Waddo, and '597 is up at East Fortune, but again, outside.
As I said, its a shame that either of those two, were not allocated to one of the indoor museums, or a shame that money hasn't been raised to put a roof over '597's head at East Fortune, given that it didn't seem to be much of a problem to raise funds to put a roof over the Concorde that went up there more recently.
Yes, it's very sad to see 597 sitting outside while Concorde is sitting all cosy inside with a LOT of space around it.....
Mind you East Fortune has turned into one of those air museums that's for all the family rather than being for enthusiasts.
A lot of the exhibits I remember from 20 years ago are in storage now. I'd like them to at least bring the Phantom out given the relative proximity to Leuchars.
Mind you East Fortune has turned into one of those air museums that's for all the family rather than being for enthusiasts.
A lot of the exhibits I remember from 20 years ago are in storage now. I'd like them to at least bring the Phantom out given the relative proximity to Leuchars.
5 In a Row said:
Yes, it's very sad to see 597 sitting outside while Concorde is sitting all cosy inside with a LOT of space around it.....
Mind you East Fortune has turned into one of those air museums that's for all the family rather than being for enthusiasts.
A lot of the exhibits I remember from 20 years ago are in storage now. I'd like them to at least bring the Phantom out given the relative proximity to Leuchars.
Mind you East Fortune has turned into one of those air museums that's for all the family rather than being for enthusiasts.
A lot of the exhibits I remember from 20 years ago are in storage now. I'd like them to at least bring the Phantom out given the relative proximity to Leuchars.
Not another museum that's being run by idiots that think they need to create an amusement park rather than a museum
I can remember going to the RAFM at Hendon, as wide eyed 10 year, about 6 weeks after it opened, and was fascinated by the place and everything in it........but I suppose I didn't have the distractions of the internet and computer games to compete with my short 10 year old attention span.
aeropilot said:
Not another museum that's being run by idiots that think they need to create an amusement park rather than a museum
I don't mind a lot of the small exhibits intended to appeal to kids/families but I know there's some proper heavy duty machinery tucked away that I would like to see again.
I think my first visit to EF was in 1982 and I'm sure they had a large display case with some wreckage that was supposedly from Rudolf Hess' crashed Bf110.
I wonder where that ended up.
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