XH558...

[LotusOmega375D]

Not the same thing at all, but interesting to know. Sywell spent 9 years trying to get planning permission for their first all weather concrete runway. There was talk of Sywell becoming a cargo hub for one of the big courier firms, with jets flying in and out around the clock. The owner threatened to shut it all down if permission wasn’t granted. He spent a seven figure sum on legal proceedings and finally in 2007, his application was granted. The runway was completed in summer 2009 at another seven figure cost.

13 years later and AFAIK, no full size jet airliner/freighter has ever operated from there. It’s still just General Aviation light aircraft and the odd King Air or similar.

[ChocolateFrog]

aeropilot said:

Indeed.
If the council are right and the sale by MOD had the clause the site must remain as an airfield, then you would think Peel haven't got many options.

However, there's a big difference between an abandoned airfield, or light use GA airfield and a viable commercial international airport.

I still think Peel's legal team are likely to be a step ahead of the council's one?

Root vegetables are a step ahead of DMBC.

[aeropilot]

LotusOmega375D said:

Not the same thing at all, but interesting to know. Sywell spent 9 years trying to get planning permission for their first all weather concrete runway. There was talk of Sywell becoming a cargo hub for one of the big courier firms, with jets flying in and out around the clock. The owner threatened to shut it all down if permission wasn’t granted. He spent a seven figure sum on legal proceedings and finally in 2007, his application was granted. The runway was completed in summer 2009 at another seven figure cost.

13 years later and AFAIK, no full size jet airliner/freighter has ever operated from there. It’s still just General Aviation light aircraft and the odd King Air or similar.

Not surprising really, the runway length is way too short for jet cargo ops at only 1100m.

Most jet cargo freighters need double that length, plus wider width.

[MarkwG]

aeropilot said:

MarkwG said:

I expect the council CPO will be for the land value only, plus perhaps a compensatory element - but nowhere near what Peel have spent, & I would expect the original deal will be couched in those term in anticipation of this outcome. The land value will depend on what planning consent will allow to be built on the site; I imagine the council have a lot of say about that. I anticipate & expect Peel to have a different view. I suspect both will spend the largest on legal fees...

Indeed.
If the council are right and the sale by MOD had the clause the site must remain as an airfield, then you would think Peel haven't got many options.

However, there's a big difference between an abandoned airfield, or light use GA airfield and a viable commercial international airport.

I still think Peel's legal team are likely to be a step ahead of the council's one?

Absolutely - the devil will be hiding in the detail. Peel have managed to become involved in a number of legal controversies over the years. Whether that means they're not very good at that kind of thing, or are getting better with lots of practice, I guess time will tell. If I was a betting man, I'd probably put my money on them, they don't seem to be quite so constrained by the normal values we'd expect those we elect to adhere to...

[andy97]

If Peel have not been able to make the airfield work as a commercial operation during their ownership, I doubt that the council can.
Cardiff airport and Welsh government?
The fact remains there are quite a few established regional airports not that far away from DSA so difficult for a viable business plan.

[MarkwG]

andy97 said:

If Peel have not been able to make the airfield work as a commercial operation during their ownership, I doubt that the council can.
Cardiff airport and Welsh government?
The fact remains there are quite a few established regional airports not that far away from DSA so difficult for a viable business plan.

I suspect the detail is around whether Peel ever really wanted to run it commercially, or whether the long term plan was about converting the land for commercial development; something the local councils apparently didn't want when they set the process in train. In cost terms, building an airport is relatively cheap, especially if the core basics are already there; the expense comes in running it, staffing, marketing etc, often the bit seen as a negative, rather than part of the price of operating effectively.

[andy97]

MarkwG said:

andy97 said:

If Peel have not been able to make the airfield work as a commercial operation during their ownership, I doubt that the council can.
Cardiff airport and Welsh government?
The fact remains there are quite a few established regional airports not that far away from DSA so difficult for a viable business plan.

I suspect the detail is around whether Peel ever really wanted to run it commercially, or whether the long term plan was about converting the land for commercial development; something the local councils apparently didn't want when they set the process in train. In cost terms, building an airport is relatively cheap, especially if the core basics are already there; the expense comes in running it, staffing, marketing etc, often the bit seen as a negative, rather than part of the price of operating effectively.

Maybe, but it’s still an expensive way of acquiring a “land bank”, particularly with borrowed money and several years worth of OPEX costs.

[Scaleybrat]

andy97 said:

Cardiff airport and Welsh government?

The Scottish Government don’t have a good track record either.

https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/homenews/20011...

[PurpleTurtle]

MarkwG said:

Scaleybrat said:

Peel purchased RAF Finningley for £78M and then invested to create a terminal building and associated infrastructure. This link suggests they’ve spent a total of £110M.
https://www.egi.co.uk/news/peel-buys-raf-finningle...
Add in inflation and I guess the local council are going to have to find £150M to purchase the airport. I’m sure the council tax payers would want their money invested into other areas rather than the purchase and running costs of a regional airport.

I expect the council CPO will be for the land value only, plus perhaps a compensatory element - but nowhere near what Peel have spent, & I would expect the original deal will be couched in those term in anticipation of this outcome. The land value will depend on what planning consent will allow to be built on the site; I imagine the council have a lot of say about that. I anticipate & expect Peel to have a different view. I suspect both will spend the largest on legal fees...

I'm a mere layman who works in IT so not really in touch with the commercial property market, but it's staggering to think that someone would pay £78 MILLION for that airport, back in 1999.

What did they think their payback period would be on it? I cannot (as history had proved in this case) believe there is anything like the kind of profit required in a modest sized regional airport.

I've not really heard much about The Peel Group before but had a quick look at their Wiki. This one story jumped out at me:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Peel_Group#HMS_P...

TL;DR Peel Group decides it no longer wants to host a historic warship at their port, the trust looking after it can't rehome it, Peel Group assume ownership and sell it for scrap.

Doesn't bode well for 558, does it?

(Apologies if this is old news, I don't have time to read the entire thread again)

Edited by PurpleTurtle on Thursday 24th November 14:24

[saaby93]

PurpleTurtle said:

I've not really heard much about The Peel Group before but had a quick look at their Wiki. This one story jumped out at me:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Peel_Group#HMS_P...

links through the article to
https://www.gazettelive.co.uk/news/teesside-news/y...

[RATATTAK]

PurpleTurtle said:

.... but it's staggering to think that someone would pay £78 MILLION for that airport, back in 1999.

Bear in mind that it came with a load of MoD housing, hangers and other RAF buildings which was sold off, rented out etc.. Add to that the land that has been developed to provide new housing and units that have been sold or added to Peel's property portfolio.

[surveyor]

Peel have also successfully acquired a boat load of agricultural land around the airport and just achieved planning on it so that it is now commercial development land. I’m sure the fact that the closure was announced after the planning consent is not at all coincidental

[aeropilot]

surveyor said:

Peel have also successfully acquired a boat load of agricultural land around the airport and just achieved planning on it so that it is now commercial development land. I’m sure the fact that the closure was announced after the planning consent is not at all coincidental

Add in the new road infrastructure put in place to access the business park.....I mean airport.....and you can in reality it was a good investment in their eyes - they just had to make sure the airport in time would be a failure.

[MarkwG]

andy97 said:

MarkwG said:

andy97 said:

If Peel have not been able to make the airfield work as a commercial operation during their ownership, I doubt that the council can.
Cardiff airport and Welsh government?
The fact remains there are quite a few established regional airports not that far away from DSA so difficult for a viable business plan.

I suspect the detail is around whether Peel ever really wanted to run it commercially, or whether the long term plan was about converting the land for commercial development; something the local councils apparently didn't want when they set the process in train. In cost terms, building an airport is relatively cheap, especially if the core basics are already there; the expense comes in running it, staffing, marketing etc, often the bit seen as a negative, rather than part of the price of operating effectively.

Maybe, but it’s still an expensive way of acquiring a “land bank”, particularly with borrowed money and several years worth of OPEX costs.

Expensive to us, maybe, but in the grand scheme of things, just speculating to accumulate. Losses made in one year offset the profits made elsewhere, perhaps. As the old adage goes, ask an accountant what one plus one equals, the answers likely to be, what do you want it to equal...?

[aeropilot]

MarkwG said:

As the old adage goes, ask an accountant what one plus one equals, the answers likely to be, what do you want it to equal...?

So true

[MarkwG]

PurpleTurtle said:

MarkwG said:

Scaleybrat said:

Peel purchased RAF Finningley for £78M and then invested to create a terminal building and associated infrastructure. This link suggests they’ve spent a total of £110M.
https://www.egi.co.uk/news/peel-buys-raf-finningle...
Add in inflation and I guess the local council are going to have to find £150M to purchase the airport. I’m sure the council tax payers would want their money invested into other areas rather than the purchase and running costs of a regional airport.

I expect the council CPO will be for the land value only, plus perhaps a compensatory element - but nowhere near what Peel have spent, & I would expect the original deal will be couched in those term in anticipation of this outcome. The land value will depend on what planning consent will allow to be built on the site; I imagine the council have a lot of say about that. I anticipate & expect Peel to have a different view. I suspect both will spend the largest on legal fees...

I'm a mere layman who works in IT so not really in touch with the commercial property market, but it's staggering to think that someone would pay £78 MILLION for that airport, back in 1999.

What did they think their payback period would be on it? I cannot (as history had proved in this case) believe there is anything like the kind of profit required in a modest sized regional airport.

To try to answer this bit: indeed, actual making money in pure profit/loss terms from a regional airport in the UK is spectacularly difficult. The benefits tend to be in the growth of jobs, the footfall attracting passengers & cargo to the surrounding area - but little of that feeds through to the bottom line. In contrast, the operation of an airport can be relatively expensive, if measured per passenger/per aircraft. That's why local authorities like to have them, but try not to be the ones actually funding them. It's one of the reasons that airports, like other transport hubs, are treated as national infrastructure elsewhere on the planet, so those costs are spread more evenly. It's also why there's a degree of cynicism when a company wants to pore that much cash into what is effectively a black hole...

But that's probably a debate for another thread .

[PurpleTurtle]

Gotcha - thanks for all the replies above.

Being a southerner I'm not familiar with the area, but on my one visit to see 558 in the early post-flight days as part of a motorbike tour I did think "there's quite a lot going on round here but not much in the way of aircraft movements, for an airport" as we rode in and out.

All makes sense in the context of the above.

[chopper602]

saaby93 said:

inks through the article to
https://www.gazettelive.co.uk/news/teesside-news/y...

Teesside Airport seems to be doing Ok after the local council(s) bought it back from Peel. Have the usual GA, scheduled and charter flights, big Draken base (now with 6 Honey Badgers) and the Oil spill 727 jets from Doncaster are now based here.

[andburg]

only way this airport continues is with a government/council backed purchase and bringing in an operator with a very slow rate of repayment on the site.

There is opportunity to make Doncaster the Stansted of the north if the budget carriers can be tempted away from Leeds/Bradford.

A compulsory purchase will not help XH558 though

[thebraketester]

Doncaster used to fly to some decent places. The last time a looked it was mainly flights to Eastern Europe. It's been forced to fail.